Right, that's what I meant. One trace level. On Jan 20, 2014 8:15 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Scott Deboy <scott.de...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> That looks good. Without all the trace levels IMO. >> > > Well, we'd want to keep the ONE TRACE level IMO: > > FATAL > ERROR > WARN > NOTICE* (NOTE) > INFO > DIAGNOSE* (DIAG, DIAGNOSTIC) > DEBUG > VERBOSE* > TRACE > > * New level. > > Gary > > > > >> Scott >> On Jan 20, 2014 7:49 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org>wrote: >>> >>>> If you really want extra logging levels without the long debate, just >>>> go copy the logging levels of Apache HTTPD. They already figured out where >>>> to place all the extra levels you guys are discussing and they've been >>>> around for years. It will be a worthy precedent to copy. >>>> >>> >>> That would be 16 levels then? >>> https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/core.html#loglevel >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 20, 2014 9:09 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:54 PM, Paul Benedict >>>>> <pbened...@apache.org>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I know we had the debate of extra logging levels for the past year. >>>>>> The extra levels are very subjective. If anyone needs more than our >>>>>> standard five, please just use markers. We should even have a whole page >>>>>> on >>>>>> the site dedicated to such a solution. >>>>>> >>>>>> It really is impossible to get consensus on the subject. I never >>>>>> needed more then our standard levels and every proposal for more shows >>>>>> the >>>>>> confusion that no one is really clear where they belong. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think that with Ralphs list, we are getting a nice >>>>> solution/evolution. >>>>> >>>>> The great thing about the new levels is that no one is forcing >>>>> developers to use the new levels, feel free to ignore them! ;) >>>>> >>>>> As a user, it is very easy to throttle how much log events you get, >>>>> change "DEBUG" to "VERBOSE" and you're done. >>>>> >>>>> OTOH, achieving the same effect with makers is more work IMO for >>>>> developers and users. So I look at markers as the workaround to the >>>>> 'levels >>>>> are not fine enough for my app' problem. Saying "use markers" is not a >>>>> fair >>>>> comparison to "change the level", from a dev and user POV. Yes, it's a >>>>> solution but a much heavier one. >>>>> >>>>> Gary >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014 2:27 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Nicholas Williams < >>>>>>> nicho...@nicholaswilliams.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To be clear, here's how I see it (assuming we adopted all levels >>>>>>>> proposed): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> FATAL > ERROR > WARN > CONFIG > INFO > VERBOSE > DEBUG > FINE > >>>>>>>> TRACE. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interesting, I would have swapped CONFIG and INFO. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can you talk a little more why CONFIG > INFO (and not INFO > >>>>>>> CONFIG)? For me, I would use VERBOSE for configuration logging. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CONFIG would map to INFO for slf4j. VERBOSE and FINE would both map >>>>>>>> to DEBUG. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My motivation for FINE was similar to your motivation for VERBOSE: >>>>>>>> DEBUG isn't quite enough. In retrospect, I agree more with you that >>>>>>>> something is needed more on the INFO side of DEBUG rather than the >>>>>>>> TRACE >>>>>>>> side. That would allow DEBUG to be used for what it's really meant >>>>>>>> for. So >>>>>>>> I'm fine with VERBOSE instead. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My reason for putting CONFIG between INFO and WARN is simple: I >>>>>>>> ALWAYS want to see config-related messages when the application >>>>>>>> starts, but >>>>>>>> I don't always want to see INFO messages after it starts. And if >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> re-configures while the application is running, I want to see that, >>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>> I've developed the habit of logging startup messages as WARNings, >>>>>>>> which I >>>>>>>> don't like doing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hope that helps some. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone from the Las Vegas airport, so please forgive >>>>>>>> brief replies and frequent typos >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 11:21, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> STEP? No clue what that means. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gary, if you want to implement VERBOSE between INFO and DEBUG I’m >>>>>>>> OK with that, but what will that map to in SLF4J, etc. DEBUG? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And yes, something on the web site should document our recommended >>>>>>>> usage for levels and markers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ah, my view of VERBOSE is that it is _more_ information, hence INFO >>>>>>>> < VERBOSE < DEBUG; while it sounds like Ralphs sees it as more DEBUG >>>>>>>> data. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For me DEBUG data is going to be already verbose, even more than >>>>>>>> 'verbose'. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What is interesting (to me) is that DEBUG is often misused based on >>>>>>>> this basic mix: debug messages can be for users *and/or* for >>>>>>>> developers, >>>>>>>> there is no distinction in the audience. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For example, as a user, I want to get data to help me debug my >>>>>>>> configuration and my process. As a developer, I want to debug the code. >>>>>>>> These can be two very different set of data. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But we do not have DEBUG_USER and DEBUG_DEV levels. I would see >>>>>>>> INFO next to VERBOSE as useful to users. Then DEBUG and TRACE useful >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> developers. Each app can have its convention of course, but it would be >>>>>>>> nice to have the distinction available through levels for developers >>>>>>>> to use. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I see TRACE as method entry and exit type of logging, *very* *low* >>>>>>>> level stuff. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We could also have both (ducking for projectiles): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> INFO >>>>>>>> VERBOSE >>>>>>>> DEBUG >>>>>>>> STEP >>>>>>>> TRACE >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Ralph Goers < >>>>>>>> ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Oops. I just noticed you proposed that VERBOSE be between INFO and >>>>>>>>> DEBUG. Now that I don’t understand. My experience is that VERBOSE is >>>>>>>>> usually more detailed than debug messages, not less. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Ralph Goers < >>>>>>>>> ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I understand the need for CONFIG. However it isn’t clear to me >>>>>>>>> whether it belongs between INFO and WARN or DEBUG and INFO. That is >>>>>>>>> because it typically would be used to log configuration during >>>>>>>>> startup. >>>>>>>>> That doesn’t necessarily imply that you would then want to see all >>>>>>>>> INFO >>>>>>>>> messages as well. Due to that, it would make more sense to me to >>>>>>>>> make a >>>>>>>>> CONFIG marker. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don’t really understand the point of FINE or FINER. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the other hand, VERBOSE does make a bit more sense, but I’m >>>>>>>>> struggling with how that is any different than TRACE. I guess the >>>>>>>>> idea is >>>>>>>>> that TRACE is for control flow (entry, exit) and VERBOSE is for more >>>>>>>>> detailed debug messages? I suppose I can go along with that >>>>>>>>> argument, but >>>>>>>>> again one could just as easily create a VERBOSE marker and attach it >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> either TRACE or DEBUG. I guess I wouldn’t object if VERBOSE was >>>>>>>>> added as a >>>>>>>>> Level but I’m not really convinced it is necessary either. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've always liked Ralph's argument that Markers give users much >>>>>>>>> more flexibility than any predefined Levels. >>>>>>>>> I would prefer to stick to the log4j/slf4j level names. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Gary Gregory < >>>>>>>>> garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Interesting, I have been wanting a VERBOSE level better INFO and >>>>>>>>>> DEBUG. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> See >>>>>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4j-dev/201310.mbox/%3CCACZkXPxNwYbn__CbXUqFhC7e3Q=kee94j+udhe8+6jiubcz...@mail.gmail.com%3E >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You'll have to dig a little in that ref to find my proposal, >>>>>>>>>> sorry I'm on my phone ATM. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It sounds like we see logging configuration messages differently >>>>>>>>>> though. I do not like the name CONFIG because it does not sound like >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> level to me. Otoh, many command lines have a verbose AND a debug >>>>>>>>>> switch. So >>>>>>>>>> it makes sense to me too have corresponding levels. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>>>>> From: Nick Williams >>>>>>>>>> Date:01/17/2014 23:50 (GMT-05:00) >>>>>>>>>> To: Log4J Developers List >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Wanted to update y'all. As you know, I've been very absent lately >>>>>>>>>> due to the book consuming every minute of my free time. I know I >>>>>>>>>> haven't >>>>>>>>>> been contributing my due, and for that please accept my sincerest >>>>>>>>>> apologies. The book is finally done (goes on sale next month!) and I >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> get back to regular life. I'm going to be out of town for the next >>>>>>>>>> week on >>>>>>>>>> a much-needed vacation with very limited access to email. I'll be >>>>>>>>>> back the >>>>>>>>>> weekend of January 25-26, and that weekend I will be spending almost >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> entire time finally dealing with the 8-10 web application-related >>>>>>>>>> bugs. >>>>>>>>>> After that, I don't see any encumbrances to releasing >>>>>>>>>> 2.0.0.GA<http://2.0.0.ga/> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Except... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Logging Levels. We kinda-sorta talked about this a few months >>>>>>>>>> ago, and a few months before that, and a few months before that, but >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> never actually DID anything about it. It's clear by now that my >>>>>>>>>> "extendable >>>>>>>>>> enum" proposal (that would be a drop-in replacement for and binary >>>>>>>>>> compatible with the current Level enum) is not going to be accepted. >>>>>>>>>> Absent >>>>>>>>>> any other proposals, I suggest we add the following new levels >>>>>>>>>> before GA: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> CONFIG - Between INFO and WARN, mapped to INFO for bridges to >>>>>>>>>> other frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> FINE - Between DEBUG and TRACE, mapped to TRACE for bridges to >>>>>>>>>> other frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'll let y'all chat about that over the next week. ;-) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Be back soon, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscr...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev-h...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>> >> > > > -- > E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org > Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second > Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> > JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> > Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> > Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com > Home: http://garygregory.com/ > Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >
