That looks good. Without all the trace levels IMO. Scott On Jan 20, 2014 7:49 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org>wrote: > >> If you really want extra logging levels without the long debate, just go >> copy the logging levels of Apache HTTPD. They already figured out where to >> place all the extra levels you guys are discussing and they've been around >> for years. It will be a worthy precedent to copy. >> > > That would be 16 levels then? > https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/core.html#loglevel > > Gary > > >> On Jan 20, 2014 9:09 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:54 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org>wrote: >>> >>>> I know we had the debate of extra logging levels for the past year. The >>>> extra levels are very subjective. If anyone needs more than our standard >>>> five, please just use markers. We should even have a whole page on the site >>>> dedicated to such a solution. >>>> >>>> It really is impossible to get consensus on the subject. I never needed >>>> more then our standard levels and every proposal for more shows the >>>> confusion that no one is really clear where they belong. >>>> >>> >>> I think that with Ralphs list, we are getting a nice solution/evolution. >>> >>> The great thing about the new levels is that no one is forcing >>> developers to use the new levels, feel free to ignore them! ;) >>> >>> As a user, it is very easy to throttle how much log events you get, >>> change "DEBUG" to "VERBOSE" and you're done. >>> >>> OTOH, achieving the same effect with makers is more work IMO for >>> developers and users. So I look at markers as the workaround to the 'levels >>> are not fine enough for my app' problem. Saying "use markers" is not a fair >>> comparison to "change the level", from a dev and user POV. Yes, it's a >>> solution but a much heavier one. >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 18, 2014 2:27 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Nicholas Williams < >>>>> nicho...@nicholaswilliams.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> To be clear, here's how I see it (assuming we adopted all levels >>>>>> proposed): >>>>>> >>>>>> FATAL > ERROR > WARN > CONFIG > INFO > VERBOSE > DEBUG > FINE > TRACE. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Interesting, I would have swapped CONFIG and INFO. >>>>> >>>>> Can you talk a little more why CONFIG > INFO (and not INFO > CONFIG)? >>>>> For me, I would use VERBOSE for configuration logging. >>>>> >>>>> Gary >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> CONFIG would map to INFO for slf4j. VERBOSE and FINE would both map >>>>>> to DEBUG. >>>>>> >>>>>> My motivation for FINE was similar to your motivation for VERBOSE: >>>>>> DEBUG isn't quite enough. In retrospect, I agree more with you that >>>>>> something is needed more on the INFO side of DEBUG rather than the TRACE >>>>>> side. That would allow DEBUG to be used for what it's really meant for. >>>>>> So >>>>>> I'm fine with VERBOSE instead. >>>>>> >>>>>> My reason for putting CONFIG between INFO and WARN is simple: I >>>>>> ALWAYS want to see config-related messages when the application starts, >>>>>> but >>>>>> I don't always want to see INFO messages after it starts. And if >>>>>> something >>>>>> re-configures while the application is running, I want to see that, too. >>>>>> I've developed the habit of logging startup messages as WARNings, which I >>>>>> don't like doing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hope that helps some. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone from the Las Vegas airport, so please forgive >>>>>> brief replies and frequent typos >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 11:21, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> STEP? No clue what that means. >>>>>> >>>>>> Gary, if you want to implement VERBOSE between INFO and DEBUG I’m OK >>>>>> with that, but what will that map to in SLF4J, etc. DEBUG? >>>>>> >>>>>> And yes, something on the web site should document our recommended >>>>>> usage for levels and markers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ralph >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Ah, my view of VERBOSE is that it is _more_ information, hence INFO < >>>>>> VERBOSE < DEBUG; while it sounds like Ralphs sees it as more DEBUG data. >>>>>> >>>>>> For me DEBUG data is going to be already verbose, even more than >>>>>> 'verbose'. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is interesting (to me) is that DEBUG is often misused based on >>>>>> this basic mix: debug messages can be for users *and/or* for developers, >>>>>> there is no distinction in the audience. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example, as a user, I want to get data to help me debug my >>>>>> configuration and my process. As a developer, I want to debug the code. >>>>>> These can be two very different set of data. >>>>>> >>>>>> But we do not have DEBUG_USER and DEBUG_DEV levels. I would see INFO >>>>>> next to VERBOSE as useful to users. Then DEBUG and TRACE useful for >>>>>> developers. Each app can have its convention of course, but it would be >>>>>> nice to have the distinction available through levels for developers to >>>>>> use. >>>>>> >>>>>> I see TRACE as method entry and exit type of logging, *very* *low* >>>>>> level stuff. >>>>>> >>>>>> We could also have both (ducking for projectiles): >>>>>> >>>>>> INFO >>>>>> VERBOSE >>>>>> DEBUG >>>>>> STEP >>>>>> TRACE >>>>>> >>>>>> Gary >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Ralph Goers < >>>>>> ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Oops. I just noticed you proposed that VERBOSE be between INFO and >>>>>>> DEBUG. Now that I don’t understand. My experience is that VERBOSE is >>>>>>> usually more detailed than debug messages, not less. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I understand the need for CONFIG. However it isn’t clear to me >>>>>>> whether it belongs between INFO and WARN or DEBUG and INFO. That is >>>>>>> because it typically would be used to log configuration during startup. >>>>>>> That doesn’t necessarily imply that you would then want to see all INFO >>>>>>> messages as well. Due to that, it would make more sense to me to make a >>>>>>> CONFIG marker. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don’t really understand the point of FINE or FINER. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other hand, VERBOSE does make a bit more sense, but I’m >>>>>>> struggling with how that is any different than TRACE. I guess the idea >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> that TRACE is for control flow (entry, exit) and VERBOSE is for more >>>>>>> detailed debug messages? I suppose I can go along with that argument, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> again one could just as easily create a VERBOSE marker and attach it to >>>>>>> either TRACE or DEBUG. I guess I wouldn’t object if VERBOSE was added >>>>>>> as a >>>>>>> Level but I’m not really convinced it is necessary either. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've always liked Ralph's argument that Markers give users much more >>>>>>> flexibility than any predefined Levels. >>>>>>> I would prefer to stick to the log4j/slf4j level names. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Gary Gregory < >>>>>>> garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Interesting, I have been wanting a VERBOSE level better INFO and >>>>>>>> DEBUG. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> See >>>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4j-dev/201310.mbox/%3CCACZkXPxNwYbn__CbXUqFhC7e3Q=kee94j+udhe8+6jiubcz...@mail.gmail.com%3E >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You'll have to dig a little in that ref to find my proposal, sorry >>>>>>>> I'm on my phone ATM. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It sounds like we see logging configuration messages differently >>>>>>>> though. I do not like the name CONFIG because it does not sound like a >>>>>>>> level to me. Otoh, many command lines have a verbose AND a debug >>>>>>>> switch. So >>>>>>>> it makes sense to me too have corresponding levels. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>>> From: Nick Williams >>>>>>>> Date:01/17/2014 23:50 (GMT-05:00) >>>>>>>> To: Log4J Developers List >>>>>>>> Subject: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wanted to update y'all. As you know, I've been very absent lately >>>>>>>> due to the book consuming every minute of my free time. I know I >>>>>>>> haven't >>>>>>>> been contributing my due, and for that please accept my sincerest >>>>>>>> apologies. The book is finally done (goes on sale next month!) and I >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> get back to regular life. I'm going to be out of town for the next >>>>>>>> week on >>>>>>>> a much-needed vacation with very limited access to email. I'll be back >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> weekend of January 25-26, and that weekend I will be spending almost >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> entire time finally dealing with the 8-10 web application-related bugs. >>>>>>>> After that, I don't see any encumbrances to releasing >>>>>>>> 2.0.0.GA<http://2.0.0.ga/> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Except... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Logging Levels. We kinda-sorta talked about this a few months ago, >>>>>>>> and a few months before that, and a few months before that, but we >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> actually DID anything about it. It's clear by now that my "extendable >>>>>>>> enum" >>>>>>>> proposal (that would be a drop-in replacement for and binary compatible >>>>>>>> with the current Level enum) is not going to be accepted. Absent any >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> proposals, I suggest we add the following new levels before GA: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CONFIG - Between INFO and WARN, mapped to INFO for bridges to other >>>>>>>> frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> FINE - Between DEBUG and TRACE, mapped to TRACE for bridges to >>>>>>>> other frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'll let y'all chat about that over the next week. ;-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Be back soon, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscr...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-h...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>> >> > > > -- > E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org > Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second > Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> > JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> > Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> > Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com > Home: http://garygregory.com/ > Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >
