On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Scott Deboy <scott.de...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That looks good. Without all the trace levels IMO. > Well, we'd want to keep the ONE TRACE level IMO: FATAL ERROR WARN NOTICE* (NOTE) INFO DIAGNOSE* (DIAG, DIAGNOSTIC) DEBUG VERBOSE* TRACE * New level. Gary > Scott > On Jan 20, 2014 7:49 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org>wrote: >> >>> If you really want extra logging levels without the long debate, just go >>> copy the logging levels of Apache HTTPD. They already figured out where to >>> place all the extra levels you guys are discussing and they've been around >>> for years. It will be a worthy precedent to copy. >>> >> >> That would be 16 levels then? >> https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/core.html#loglevel >> >> Gary >> >> >>> On Jan 20, 2014 9:09 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:54 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org>wrote: >>>> >>>>> I know we had the debate of extra logging levels for the past year. >>>>> The extra levels are very subjective. If anyone needs more than our >>>>> standard five, please just use markers. We should even have a whole page >>>>> on >>>>> the site dedicated to such a solution. >>>>> >>>>> It really is impossible to get consensus on the subject. I never >>>>> needed more then our standard levels and every proposal for more shows the >>>>> confusion that no one is really clear where they belong. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I think that with Ralphs list, we are getting a nice >>>> solution/evolution. >>>> >>>> The great thing about the new levels is that no one is forcing >>>> developers to use the new levels, feel free to ignore them! ;) >>>> >>>> As a user, it is very easy to throttle how much log events you get, >>>> change "DEBUG" to "VERBOSE" and you're done. >>>> >>>> OTOH, achieving the same effect with makers is more work IMO for >>>> developers and users. So I look at markers as the workaround to the 'levels >>>> are not fine enough for my app' problem. Saying "use markers" is not a fair >>>> comparison to "change the level", from a dev and user POV. Yes, it's a >>>> solution but a much heavier one. >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 18, 2014 2:27 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Nicholas Williams < >>>>>> nicho...@nicholaswilliams.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> To be clear, here's how I see it (assuming we adopted all levels >>>>>>> proposed): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FATAL > ERROR > WARN > CONFIG > INFO > VERBOSE > DEBUG > FINE > >>>>>>> TRACE. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting, I would have swapped CONFIG and INFO. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can you talk a little more why CONFIG > INFO (and not INFO > >>>>>> CONFIG)? For me, I would use VERBOSE for configuration logging. >>>>>> >>>>>> Gary >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> CONFIG would map to INFO for slf4j. VERBOSE and FINE would both map >>>>>>> to DEBUG. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My motivation for FINE was similar to your motivation for VERBOSE: >>>>>>> DEBUG isn't quite enough. In retrospect, I agree more with you that >>>>>>> something is needed more on the INFO side of DEBUG rather than the TRACE >>>>>>> side. That would allow DEBUG to be used for what it's really meant for. >>>>>>> So >>>>>>> I'm fine with VERBOSE instead. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My reason for putting CONFIG between INFO and WARN is simple: I >>>>>>> ALWAYS want to see config-related messages when the application starts, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> I don't always want to see INFO messages after it starts. And if >>>>>>> something >>>>>>> re-configures while the application is running, I want to see that, too. >>>>>>> I've developed the habit of logging startup messages as WARNings, which >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> don't like doing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hope that helps some. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone from the Las Vegas airport, so please forgive >>>>>>> brief replies and frequent typos >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 11:21, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> STEP? No clue what that means. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary, if you want to implement VERBOSE between INFO and DEBUG I’m OK >>>>>>> with that, but what will that map to in SLF4J, etc. DEBUG? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And yes, something on the web site should document our recommended >>>>>>> usage for levels and markers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ah, my view of VERBOSE is that it is _more_ information, hence INFO >>>>>>> < VERBOSE < DEBUG; while it sounds like Ralphs sees it as more DEBUG >>>>>>> data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For me DEBUG data is going to be already verbose, even more than >>>>>>> 'verbose'. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What is interesting (to me) is that DEBUG is often misused based on >>>>>>> this basic mix: debug messages can be for users *and/or* for developers, >>>>>>> there is no distinction in the audience. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For example, as a user, I want to get data to help me debug my >>>>>>> configuration and my process. As a developer, I want to debug the code. >>>>>>> These can be two very different set of data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But we do not have DEBUG_USER and DEBUG_DEV levels. I would see INFO >>>>>>> next to VERBOSE as useful to users. Then DEBUG and TRACE useful for >>>>>>> developers. Each app can have its convention of course, but it would be >>>>>>> nice to have the distinction available through levels for developers to >>>>>>> use. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I see TRACE as method entry and exit type of logging, *very* *low* >>>>>>> level stuff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We could also have both (ducking for projectiles): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> INFO >>>>>>> VERBOSE >>>>>>> DEBUG >>>>>>> STEP >>>>>>> TRACE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Ralph Goers < >>>>>>> ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Oops. I just noticed you proposed that VERBOSE be between INFO and >>>>>>>> DEBUG. Now that I don’t understand. My experience is that VERBOSE is >>>>>>>> usually more detailed than debug messages, not less. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Ralph Goers < >>>>>>>> ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I understand the need for CONFIG. However it isn’t clear to me >>>>>>>> whether it belongs between INFO and WARN or DEBUG and INFO. That is >>>>>>>> because it typically would be used to log configuration during startup. >>>>>>>> That doesn’t necessarily imply that you would then want to see all >>>>>>>> INFO >>>>>>>> messages as well. Due to that, it would make more sense to me to make >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> CONFIG marker. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don’t really understand the point of FINE or FINER. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the other hand, VERBOSE does make a bit more sense, but I’m >>>>>>>> struggling with how that is any different than TRACE. I guess the >>>>>>>> idea is >>>>>>>> that TRACE is for control flow (entry, exit) and VERBOSE is for more >>>>>>>> detailed debug messages? I suppose I can go along with that argument, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> again one could just as easily create a VERBOSE marker and attach it to >>>>>>>> either TRACE or DEBUG. I guess I wouldn’t object if VERBOSE was added >>>>>>>> as a >>>>>>>> Level but I’m not really convinced it is necessary either. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've always liked Ralph's argument that Markers give users much >>>>>>>> more flexibility than any predefined Levels. >>>>>>>> I would prefer to stick to the log4j/slf4j level names. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Gary Gregory < >>>>>>>> garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Interesting, I have been wanting a VERBOSE level better INFO and >>>>>>>>> DEBUG. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> See >>>>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4j-dev/201310.mbox/%3CCACZkXPxNwYbn__CbXUqFhC7e3Q=kee94j+udhe8+6jiubcz...@mail.gmail.com%3E >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You'll have to dig a little in that ref to find my proposal, sorry >>>>>>>>> I'm on my phone ATM. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It sounds like we see logging configuration messages differently >>>>>>>>> though. I do not like the name CONFIG because it does not sound like a >>>>>>>>> level to me. Otoh, many command lines have a verbose AND a debug >>>>>>>>> switch. So >>>>>>>>> it makes sense to me too have corresponding levels. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>>>> From: Nick Williams >>>>>>>>> Date:01/17/2014 23:50 (GMT-05:00) >>>>>>>>> To: Log4J Developers List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wanted to update y'all. As you know, I've been very absent lately >>>>>>>>> due to the book consuming every minute of my free time. I know I >>>>>>>>> haven't >>>>>>>>> been contributing my due, and for that please accept my sincerest >>>>>>>>> apologies. The book is finally done (goes on sale next month!) and I >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> get back to regular life. I'm going to be out of town for the next >>>>>>>>> week on >>>>>>>>> a much-needed vacation with very limited access to email. I'll be >>>>>>>>> back the >>>>>>>>> weekend of January 25-26, and that weekend I will be spending almost >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> entire time finally dealing with the 8-10 web application-related >>>>>>>>> bugs. >>>>>>>>> After that, I don't see any encumbrances to releasing >>>>>>>>> 2.0.0.GA<http://2.0.0.ga/> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Except... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Logging Levels. We kinda-sorta talked about this a few months ago, >>>>>>>>> and a few months before that, and a few months before that, but we >>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>> actually DID anything about it. It's clear by now that my "extendable >>>>>>>>> enum" >>>>>>>>> proposal (that would be a drop-in replacement for and binary >>>>>>>>> compatible >>>>>>>>> with the current Level enum) is not going to be accepted. Absent any >>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>> proposals, I suggest we add the following new levels before GA: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CONFIG - Between INFO and WARN, mapped to INFO for bridges to >>>>>>>>> other frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> FINE - Between DEBUG and TRACE, mapped to TRACE for bridges to >>>>>>>>> other frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll let y'all chat about that over the next week. ;-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Be back soon, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscr...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-h...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >> > -- E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com Home: http://garygregory.com/ Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
