Speaking as WG Chair and one who rarely wears a hat: I agree with Chris. There are multiple solutions being proposed and, as one would expect, the authors of each solution like their own.
Can we agree on the requirement is the topology Peter used as an example with 100 areas each with 1000 PEs (100K total PEs) with 2 ABRs per area? Thanks, Acee On 1/25/22, 5:20 AM, "Lsr on behalf of Christian Hopps" <[email protected] on behalf of [email protected]> wrote: Chair Hat: [This is not directed specifically at Aijun, I'm just replying to the thread at this point.] I think we all need to try and bring the tone down a bit, I realize this discussion/debate has really dragged on and so nerves are getting frazzled, but let's try, anyway. I do think that some value is still being produced by the discussion, if somewhat painfully. Thanks, Chris. "Aijun Wang" <[email protected]> writes: > Hi, Tony: > > I am curious why you are so anxious to claim other solution, or make the baseless ranking? Please do not misled the reader any more. It's not helpful for the others to find the truth. > When the receivers receives the PUA information, the SPF algorithm will not be > triggered, then where is coming from what you claimed stress? They are just > messages, similar with your message that via other out-of-band channel. > Other responses inline. > > Best Regards > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Tony Li > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 3:25 PM > To: Aijun Wang <[email protected]> > Cc: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <[email protected]>; Gyan Mishra > <[email protected]>; Peter Psenak <[email protected]>; > Christian Hopps <[email protected]>; Robert Raszuk <[email protected]>; lsr > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Lsr] BGP vs PUA/PULSE > > > Hi Aijun, > >> 1) Consider in the BGP scenario: every PE may receive the routes from other PEs, right? So, using the PUB/SUB model, every PE should subscribe the status of the other PEs, right? > > > My understanding is that a PE typically only has tunnels to some other select number of PEs. Yes, each PE would register for the other PEs that it connects to. > [WAJ] No tunnel. You misunderstand the sentence, please read it again. > >> 2) Consider in the tunnel scenario: every PE/P may select other PE/P as the tunnel endpoint, right?, So, using the PUB/SUB model, every P/PE should subscribe the status of other P/PEs, right? >> Then, with the approach of PUB/SUB direction, the network will eventually evolved into full mesh like subscription. That is, every device in the network will care about every other device's status. Then, isn't the flooding mechanism the most efficient one? > > Efficient in what metric? In terms of the number of unique messages initiated, yes. However, that is not the metric that matters. What matters is the load on the network when there are failures and PUA dumps things into the L2 LSDB. > [WAJ] They are just messages. It's certainly no more than your out-of-band messages. > > We specifically have to design routing protocols to operate in worst case scenarios. PUA means that there is no real upper bound to the worst case. Bad news that we weren’t expecting can just keep piling up. The worst scale point is when everything has failed. For ensuring stability that’s disasterous. And stability is way, way, way more important than efficiency. > [WAJ] There is control method at the ABR, why you always ignores it? It like that you do the summary work at ABR. > >> If we take the no summary solution, for the above so called "important prefixes", then: >> 1) All the devices within the network will be filled with these detail prefixes in the normal state, right? > > Yes. > >> 2) When there is the massive failure as that you often worried, the status of such detailed prefixes will influence the IGP convergence, right? > > Unlikely. If there are massive failures then prefixes will be withdrawn, not added. State goes down. The stress on the network goes down. This is a highly desirable property. Withdrawing state is not going to significantly affect the performance of the IGP. SPF performance is O(n log n) for n = (# edges + #nodes). The number of prefixes is relatively noise. > [WAJ] If your above explanation is right, it is the same for PUA solution. Isn't it? > > >> 3) And, when the massive failure recovery, the status of such detailed prefixes will influence AGAIN the performance of IGP, right? > > No. Same reasoning. > [WAJ] Are you sure? State goes up, the stress on the network goes down? > >> But with the summary+PUA/PULSE(with the threshold control on ABRs as described in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsr/fnP1dwvWhT3oRduwXGK73NzQAUo/), >> 1) There is NO stress for all the devices in the network to keep the above detailed "important prefixes" in the normal state, right? > > True. Also irrelevant. > [WAJ] You can always ignores the merits of other solutions. > >> 2) There is CONTROLLED influence to the IGP when massive failure occur, right? > > Perhaps, but the grave concern is that the ‘controlled influence’ is adequate to maintain stability and yet providing some benefit. Again, the feature is architected backwards: it adds stress under failure conditions. Exactly what we don’t want. > And whatever control is installed, some customer will dial it up to 11 and then call my CEO when their network melts down. No thank you. > [WAJ] Again, no SPF stress under failure condition. No more message than your out-of-band solution. > > >> 3) There is NO influence to the IGP performance when massive failure recovery, right? > > Irrelevant. The recovery time is irrelevant. Again, the primary requirement is stabiilty. > [WAJ] Very curious, how to get such conclusion? > > >> Which one is the best option then? > > > As we’ve been saying for months now, the ordering is: > > 1) Leak PE loopbacks > 2) Pub/Sub > 3) Carry loopbacks in BGP and recurse > 4) Multi-hop BFD > 5) Pulse > 6) PUA > > Stability, stability, stability, and stability. Get the message? > [WAJ] From the above ranking, I begin again to doubt your expert's undestanding. Please notice again when the router receives PUA message, no SPF algorithm needed, Understand? Understand? Understand? > > Tony > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsr mailing list > [email protected] > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr _______________________________________________ Lsr mailing list [email protected] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsr
