I included the actual quote from Stallman that would in his view make Android non-free, esp w.r.t Honeycomb. But that was not the central point I was making. P.
On Aug 01, 2011, at 13:10, Tim Schofield wrote: > In what way is Linux not Free software?? > > Linux is released under the GPL v2 which is a Free software license. > Android is released under the GPL v2 which is a Free software license. > I'm not sure where you are having a problem? I think where you are > getting yourself all mixed up is that some people contribute code to > Linux while not believing in all of the principles of Free software, > rather they see it as open source. That doesn't stop Linux from being > Free software. Is that any clearer for you? > > > > On 1 August 2011 10:58, Paul Bagyenda <[email protected]> wrote: >> Comments inline >> >> On Aug 01, 2011, at 12:24, Tim Schofield wrote: >> >>> Hi Paul, Thank you for explaining things in such simple terms. I sent >>> the Stallman (btw just to name drop he will be a house guest of mine >>> in a few weeks) piece as an attempt to show the difference between >>> Free software and open source as you had sent a quote from someone who >>> felt the FSF worshiped open source, so I am glad it went on about it, >>> that was kind of the point. >>> >>> Without Richard and the FSF there would be no Linux, no Android, no >>> openmoko no Firefox, etc etc etc and etc. Not just the number of >>> packages but most of them are absolutely key to the running of that >>> system. I really feel he does not need to justify his contribution to >>> software freedom. >> >> Indeed, and I do not wish to take away from them. Not one bit. Just as it >> is strange to suggest that iOS is loved purely because of marketing. It is >> not. FSF helped their growth, but a lot have decided they care less about >> the freedom social movement bit and more about the open source bit. Does >> that diminish them in some way? >> >>> Can you let us know your contribution so that we can >>> measure one against the other? >> >> Pfft! Really? Is this where we are now? Google if you must. I don't think we >> should be talking at this level. >> >>> Or maybe Steve Jobs' contribution to >>> software freedom? Can you just have a quick look and see how much of >>> your Linux distro comes from the GNU project. >>> >> Does SJ have to do so by not only setting an example but also preaching? >> >>> Linux is Free software. If you believe in the principles behind Linux, >>> then you believe in the principles of Free software. >>> >> >> But you sent a link and then ignored the distinctions it presents? Stallman >> believes in the social movement bit. But he himself points out another way >> which, true, he doesn't believe in, but those of who do not see "social >> freedom" as an absolute (and only) end, can not be asked to leave the room >> when there are contributions they might make and have made in a more global >> sense. I think it goes back that High Priest thing. Even going by your link, >> Android (Linux) as it is now would not pass muster. Note well: " Also, they >> judge solely by the license of the source code, whereas our criterion also >> considers whether a device will let you run your modified version of the >> program. " Does this make it non-free software? I guess so. Should I care? >> Not really, as I explained before. >> >> This is the Linux Users Group. Linux as it is now would never tick all the >> boxes on freedom list. I submit doesn't matter on this list and to me, since >> it is not required. If this were the "Free Software Users List" then that >> would be another matter altogether. >> >> P. >> >>> Thanks >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> On 1 August 2011 10:01, Paul Bagyenda <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Let me try to explain again in simple terms, and please listen. >>>> >>>> 1. The Stallman piece you just sent goes on an on (as expected) about the >>>> difference between freedom and open source. That piece presumably reflects >>>> your own thinking on the matter. Stallman explains that one is an ethical >>>> issue, which he distinguishes from the open source latter as a practical >>>> implementation of a subset of it (my words to be sure) that (in part) >>>> makes it more acceptable to business. ("Open source is a development >>>> methodology; free software is a social movement.") Linux is open source, >>>> primarily, which means that we don't need to believe in Stallman-esque >>>> social movements to want to promote it and discuss it here. >>>> 2. To the above I say: Great! Except that save for the early days of his >>>> movement, when the likes of gcc were produced, we might ask Stallman "What >>>> have you done for me lately?" That is my point, and the point of the >>>> comment I posted, which I think you dismissed without reading because it >>>> didn't conform to the teachings of the Church of Stallman. And Stallman is >>>> a great guy. But if we'd only stuck to this "social movement" business >>>> you'd now be using an OpenMoko* device, instead of an Android/iOS one. You >>>> would be using Gnu Hurd** instead of Ubuntu. Would the computing world be >>>> a better place? >>>> >>>> >>>> P. >>>> >>>> * Yes, before Android there was OpenMoko. Google it. >>>> ** It's not even ready, after all these years. >>>> On Aug 01, 2011, at 11:45, Tim Schofield wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Paul, you are obviously free to worship whatever god you please, >>>>> that is one of your basic freedoms. Myself I don't worship any god. >>>>> What I don't understand is why people who are so anti the principles >>>>> of software freedom are on a Linux user group mailing list. >>>>> >>>>> I subscribe to many LUG lists around the world, but this is the only >>>>> one where so few people are actually in favour of software freedom. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Tim >>>>> >>>>> On 1 August 2011 09:37, Paul Bagyenda <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> I think you are the one who doesn't get it. We are saying simply: Your >>>>>> god is not our god, and need not be. Khalas. >>>>>> On Aug 01, 2011, at 10:40, Tim Schofield wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Whoever wrote that comment clearly hadn't bothered to understand any >>>>>>> of the concepts involved in what they were talking about. One thing >>>>>>> the FSF definitely don't worship is Open Source. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I got no further on the quote because anything else this person says >>>>>>> is not worth reading. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 1 August 2011 06:32, Paul Bagyenda <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> And I remembered a comment I read here: >>>>>>>> http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2010/04/29/jobs_on_flash/#c_752789 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> For most of the IT industry's relatively short life, programmers and >>>>>>>> nerds have been its High Priests, acting as gatekeepers and >>>>>>>> controlling every aspect of your access to their religion. >>>>>>>> The most blatant exponent of this religion is the Free Software >>>>>>>> Foundation, which was founded towards the end of the earliest phase of >>>>>>>> personal computing. This foundation worships the god known as "Open >>>>>>>> Source"—a god they didn't even invent. >>>>>>>> "Open Source" is a programmer-centric concept which is only of direct >>>>>>>> relevance to other programmers. In the early '80s, when the FSF began, >>>>>>>> most computer users could be assumed to be either programmers, or at >>>>>>>> least IT-literate. >>>>>>>> Today, 99% of computer users today *don't* know how to program, and a >>>>>>>> substantial majority would have trouble recognising the power switch, >>>>>>>> so a programmer-centric approach to IT is a lot less useful. The FSF >>>>>>>> has become the closest thing the programming community has to a union, >>>>>>>> including a strong protectionist stance against anything they see as a >>>>>>>> threat to the status of programmers within the IT industry. >>>>>>>> The FSF cannot survive in the world as seen by Apple. Apple's >>>>>>>> corporate philosophy doesn't see computers as a god-like gift to >>>>>>>> humanity which must be protected from the unclean masses. Instead, the >>>>>>>> *user* is placed on the pedestal. His needs *always* come first—even >>>>>>>> if it means writing applications for Apple's computers is made harder >>>>>>>> as a result. (For example, it's not uncommon for a major OS X release >>>>>>>> to break some old APIs to encourage the use of newer, more powerful >>>>>>>> APIs which offer a richer user experience. Microsoft would be lynched >>>>>>>> if they tried that.) ... >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 01, 2011, at 08:07, Victor van Reijswoud wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Amen >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Tim Schofield >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> <sigh> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.fsf.org/working-together/ >>>>>>>>>> </sigh> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 31 July 2011 10:48, sanga collins <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> What freedom exactly are you missing from apples interpretation of >>>>>>>>>>> the BSD >>>>>>>>>>> code. I see alot of folks yelling for 'freedom' but with the few >>>>>>>>>>> areas where >>>>>>>>>>> the freedom is granted they are not doing anything useful at all >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 4:17 AM, Tim Schofield >>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well there is a major difference between the way Apple uses the BSD >>>>>>>>>>>> licensed code and the way Google does. Apple have taken BSD >>>>>>>>>>>> licensed >>>>>>>>>>>> code, made changes and then released it as proprietary code, >>>>>>>>>>>> whereas >>>>>>>>>>>> Google has taken it, made changes and then released it as BSD >>>>>>>>>>>> licensed >>>>>>>>>>>> code. Apple have taken away our freedom while Google retains it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Having said this I am not a fan of permissive licensing. I would >>>>>>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>>>>>> contribute any code to a project that had such a license. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 31 July 2011 07:33, joachim Gwoke <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Schofield does mention use of BSD code and license on android. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Now from >>>>>>>>>>>>> what we see apple has always taken this route and made a lot of >>>>>>>>>>>>> money from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it. Can the droid people do the same? Seems to me that extremely >>>>>>>>>>>>> permissive >>>>>>>>>>>>> licensing like that of the bsd people keeps them in the shadows. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> regards >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joachim >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list archives: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them >>>>>>>>>>>>> (including >>>>>>>>>>>>> attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for >>>>>>>>>>>>> them in >>>>>>>>>>>>> any way. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> WebERP Africa Ltd >>>>>>>>>>>> +447710427049 >>>>>>>>>>>> +256752963327 >>>>>>>>>>>> +255758554413 >>>>>>>>>>>> www.weberpafrica.com >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them >>>>>>>>>>>> (including >>>>>>>>>>>> attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for >>>>>>>>>>>> them in >>>>>>>>>>>> any way. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Sanga M. Collins >>>>>>>>>>> Network Engineering >>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>>>>>>>> Google Voice: (954) 324-1365 >>>>>>>>>>> E- fax: (435) 578 7411 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them >>>>>>>>>>> (including >>>>>>>>>>> attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for >>>>>>>>>>> them in >>>>>>>>>>> any way. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> WebERP Africa Ltd >>>>>>>>>> +447710427049 >>>>>>>>>> +256752963327 >>>>>>>>>> +255758554413 >>>>>>>>>> www.weberpafrica.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>>>>>>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them >>>>>>>>>> (including attachments if any). The mailing list host is not >>>>>>>>>> responsible for them in any way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>>>>>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>>>>>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them >>>>>>>>> (including attachments if any). The mailing list host is not >>>>>>>>> responsible for them in any way. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>>>>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>>>>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them >>>>>>>> (including attachments if any). The mailing list host is not >>>>>>>> responsible for them in any way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> WebERP Africa Ltd >>>>>>> +447710427049 >>>>>>> +256752963327 >>>>>>> +255758554413 >>>>>>> www.weberpafrica.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>>>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>>>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including >>>>>>> attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for them >>>>>>> in any way. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>>>> >>>>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>>>> >>>>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>>>> >>>>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including >>>>>> attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for them >>>>>> in any way. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> WebERP Africa Ltd >>>>> +447710427049 >>>>> +256752963327 >>>>> +255758554413 >>>>> www.weberpafrica.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>>> >>>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>>> >>>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>>> >>>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including >>>>> attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for them in >>>>> any way. >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>>> >>>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: >>>> [email protected] >>>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>>> >>>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>>> >>>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including >>>> attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for them in >>>> any way. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> WebERP Africa Ltd >>> +447710427049 >>> +256752963327 >>> +255758554413 >>> www.weberpafrica.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >>> >>> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: [email protected] >>> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >>> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >>> >>> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >>> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >>> >>> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including >>> attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for them in >>> any way. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug >> >> Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: [email protected] >> Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug >> To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug >> >> The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: >> http://www.infocom.co.ug/ >> >> The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including >> attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for them in >> any way. >> > > > > -- > WebERP Africa Ltd > +447710427049 > +256752963327 > +255758554413 > www.weberpafrica.com > _______________________________________________ > The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug > > Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: [email protected] > Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug > To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug > > The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: > http://www.infocom.co.ug/ > > The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including > attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for them in any > way. > _______________________________________________ The Uganda Linux User Group: http://linux.or.ug Send messages to this mailing list by addressing e-mails to: [email protected] Mailing list archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Mailing list settings: http://kym.net/mailman/listinfo/lug To unsubscribe: http://kym.net/mailman/options/lug The Uganda LUG mailing list is generously hosted by INFOCOM: http://www.infocom.co.ug/ The above comments and data are owned by whoever posted them (including attachments if any). The mailing list host is not responsible for them in any way.
