I look forward to that but let's make sure we are on the same page. I am looking at symmetricality in Lute making as two combined symmetrical element joined together in an asymmetrical configuration. In other words the center line of the neck is not parallel or continuous with the center line of the body, belly, sound board assembly. I do not argue the symmetricality of the Lute bodies you have been discussing, I am arguing the total symmetricality of the assembled Lute where, as Lundberg says, is asymmetrical in regards to the alignment of neck to body. Myself I would like to believe that they are and should be symmetrical, it seems more logical and is much easier to manufacture/craft. But if the evidence points the other direction then we are left with either ignoring it and doing it our way, trying to find out why this alignment occurs, or just copy it in our instruments with the caveat; this is the way a Lute is supposed to be made.
Vance Wood. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect > >You are still missing the point. The moulds my be >symmetrical, and the > >necks symmetrical, but do the plans and drawings show a >symmetrical > >alignment between both elements? > > The only lutes that could possibly be symmetrical, neck and body, > would be early 6 course lutes at the turn of the 16th century, of which none > have survived in original condition, or at least were told. The Gerle looks > very symmetrical neck, and body from pictures, but I don't have the plans > for that one to compare. > > Since this thread has revolved around Strad's 11 course lute template, > of the body only, I think Vance, it might be you who are missing the point. > > I have a pretty good collection of lute plans by various people. When > I have some spare time I'll draw up some body shapes and compare the mirror > images on a number of them, at least there will be less speculation, and > more facts. I can then post my findings. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:34 PM > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect > > > > You are still missing the point. The moulds my be symmetrical, and the > > necks symmetrical, but do the plans and drawings show a symmetrical > > alignment between both elements? > > > > Vance Wood. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "lute list" <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > "Vance > > Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:44 PM > > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect > > > > > > > >Vance said > > > > The point here is that the > > > >use of asymmetry was to create the illusion of symmetry. > > > > > > Why would anyone want the illusion of symmetry, when one can have > the > > > real thing? Stradivari obviously thought very highly of symmetry, since > > all > > > of his moulds are symmetrical. > > > > > > Michael Thames > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "lute list" <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:28 AM > > > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect > > > > > > > > > > After reading Mr. Lundbergs book several times I have come to the > > > conclusion > > > > that he must be correct. He claims to have examined actual > instruments > > > that > > > > all show the same asymmetry, the neck cocked toward the base side of > the > > > > Lute. He goes on to explain that the body does indeed have a center > > line, > > > > and the neck does indeed have a center line, but the juxtaposition of > > both > > > > elements does not extend the two center lines so that they become one > > > common > > > > center line. Can anyone site an historical instrument where a common > > > center > > > > line is obvious? > > > > > > > > I realize the argument can be made that the instruments have become > > warped > > > > and twisted over time but knowing wood as I do, if that were so, there > > > would > > > > be evidence in a dramatic distortion of both the treble and base sides > > of > > > > the bowel. The base side would show evidence of compression causing > an > > > > obvious kink near the joint of the neck and bowel. The treble side > > would > > > > show evidence of separation at the same point understanding that wood > > this > > > > old cannot be stretched, it only cracks and separates. > > > > > > > > Vance Wood. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:15 PM > > > > Subject: RE: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Fletcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > > > > > > > > > Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the > > > > > > Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper > > > > > > template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line. > > > > > > > > > > Is it clear how this template was used? > > > > > > > > > > I can see many possibiltys, including the possiblity of other > > templates > > > > > now missing. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps this was part of a study, and represents another makers > work; > > > > > are there any strad-made lutes surviving to compare this template > to? > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, i suppose lots of this has been discussed already, I have > been > > > > > skipping lots of email the past few weeks, too much apparant > flaming, > > > > > not enough time to indulge in reading, let alone responding. > > > > > -- > > > > > dana emery > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
