I think that is all very carefully thought out, but from the broader
view, the problem is that there is no absolute agreement either
historically or at present, there are only degrees of agreement. For
example, the term theorbo had a wider definition in the past than in
the present. However, not everyone agrees today, either.
All musical instruments have contextual layers of definitions. So for
example, the word lute has a kind of classification meaning, then
special meanings based on context.
And so it is with the theorbo.
In its widest sense, the theorbo simply means a lute based on either a
bass lute or a renaissance lute with an extended neck. However, even as
I write this, I know that there are those who will of course disagree.
Interestingly, the result of "narrowing" the definition of theorbo has
had the absolute effect of reducing the number and types of theorbos
that are played today--far fewer than the types available in the
baroque.
So one can argue that an overly precise definition results in a loss of
diversity in performance--so it is not always a good thing. There were
around twelve types of theorbo historically, many of those have now
disappeared, as the terms have been conflated--killed by musicology,
essentially.
Not only that, but the Chitarrone has disappeared completely--in the
narrow sense of a Bass lute tuned up a fourth-- that was brilliantly
conjectured in the Harwood et alia article (which is of course online)
due do the subsequent conflation of the term with theorbo.
One point that you make concerning the tuning: I don't believe that it
is possible to determine the tuning of an original instrument--for one
thing, there were many tunings and many pitches.
So no definition can be based on the tuning that I can see, at least
with today's knowledge.
Lastly, I must addd that even though the modern references are in
agreement about the erzlaute, it is not always the case that the
standard references are correct.
For example, Marco Uccellini was born in 1610, yet all the CDs,
dictionaries and articles state 1603 based on an erroneous and uncited
source (probably MGG).
More close to the lute world, the vast majority of books give the
Etymology fo Lute as Arabic for "wood" but this is also incorrect as
the early writers consulted modern Arabic dictionaries instead of
medieval ones.
A difficult thing, to define an instrument.
dt
At 02:23 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote:
Of course in history the lute terminology has changed. And of course
you will find dictionaries with confused and confusing translations.
And also some of us haven't a clear view on the terminology... and
once even at an article of me the picture material has been changed
in the last second, but not the commentary...
But:
It's the job of all of us to use a coherent terminology. I hope that
f.ex. my book gives the correct version for the state of the art.
[1]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/BuchLt/BuchLt.html
The term "double headed French lute" is misleading because this type
was not used in France. So I changed to "double headed lute"
Sometimes the baroque lute with swan neck was called "theorbo" or
"German theorbo". In the today's view it's not correct because the
tuning is that of a baroque lute. So we have the princip that the
name says also something on the tuning.
The "German theorbo" is in the today's view the 14-course continuo
instrument with the tuning F G A B C D E F G A d f a d', described
by Weiss and Baron. So the combination of German and theorbo says
that it's an own tuning and not the normal theorbo tuning.
Our terminology should be clear - and sometimes historical terms
were not really exact in our today's sense because they had not to
call all the instrument types of 300 years with an unmistakable
term.
Historically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an
archlute.
Where and when?
Andreas
Am 10.07.2009 um 10:48 schrieb David Tayler:
Although I will of course defer to my German colleagues in matters
of native language,
I have used the term for 35 years in Germany with no problems.
If you take a few hundred CDs from the last thirty years you will
find that the term is usually used for archlute. Not always, but
very frequently.
You will also find from the same period that a proportion of these
CDs also conflates the terms theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute, so
there can't be a definite meaning for the terms.
Historically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an
archlute.
Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often are in the
disposition of the instruments.
This is understandable, however, since many unabridged German
dictionaries give Erzlaute as a synonym for Bogenlaute (which is
rarely used) and translate it as archlute, not theorbo.
For CDs that are originally in English or French those who rely on
these dictionaries for CD notes and translations thus keep the term
current.
In addition, musicological papers as well as Festival booklets from
major festivals use not only these dictionaries but also the Grove
Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines, rightly of wrongly,
erzlaute as archlute.
So it could be that there is a difference between the written use of
the word and the spoken use of the word, but of course the word
mainly appears in printed material.
Respectfully,
dt
At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote:
"Jerzy Zak" <[2][email protected]> schrieb:
> That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: "teorbierte
> laute" (or close to that spelling),
It's become part of the history of research. With Pohlmann (ch. 7),
Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theorbierte Laute. According to his
definition, Theorbenlauten were lutes with first pegboxes bent back
and
second pegboxes attached in the direction of the neck.
If I'm not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed
lutes
today.
To complete confusion, he added: "Theorbierte Lauten werden auch
Knickhalslauten genannt, die auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder
rechts
Aufsaetze fuer die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben."
Theorbierte Lauten are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with
bent-back
necks), which have riders on their pegboxes on the left and(or on
the
right for the highest or lowest strings.
Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this sophisticated
"definition". My, o my.
> the untranslatable to Polish "re-entrant".
It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either. Some have
tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurrent,
retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions of someone
running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tuning_ is sort of
"coming back".
Mathias
> On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Roesel wrote:
>
> > And btw, [3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as
sweeping
> > IMHO,
> > neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the
arciliuto and
> > the archlute.
> >
> > Someone put a language link to it into
> > [4]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is
misleading. The
> > German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic.
> >
> > Mathias
> >
> > "Jerzy Zak" <[5][email protected]> schrieb:
> >> David,
> >> Thanks for that.
> >>
> >> Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the
"latest
> >> semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites
> > ". I'm absolutely
> >> not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read
other's --
> >> just to remind it's still "untouched" by other pluckers.
Perhaps some
> >> lute exemple
> > ??
> >>
> >> J
> >> _____
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote:
> >>
> >>> Archlute
> >>> dt
> >>>
> >>> At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote:
> >>>> What is an "Erzlaute"?
> >>>> The other instruments pecified on the page are "organ,
harpsichord,
> >>>> violins, cello, guitar, theorbE".
> >>>>
> >>>> jz
To get on or off this list see list information at
[6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
+41 (0)62 771 47 07
[7][email protected]
--
References
1. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/BuchLt/BuchLt.html
2. mailto:[email protected]
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute
4. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute
5. mailto:[email protected]
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. mailto:[email protected]
