That's not true ,modern guitarists use their thumb on the treble strings. It is a necessary skill for music by Rodrigo to Britten... not to mention transcription (God forbid!)
Best, Mark Delpriora -----Original Message----- From: Paul Kieffer <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 12:15 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Morgan, I think most important thing is, as mentioned above, plucking both strings of each course, and plucking the strings as strong as you can into the soundboard (this includes with the thumb as well). I think classical guitarist aren't used to using the thumb on the treble strings, but it is important in lute music. It can be done with both TO and TU technique, and I think the best thing would be to try for yourself and see what is best. The bottom line is, If you develop a good tone, nobody will care what technique you are using. The most important part is the tone. Have a tone that people will envy. I personally think if you are playing repertoire like Dowland and Laurencini, TO sounds a lot better in the long run, but it is difficult and frustrating to learn. Many people find TU to be easier and more comfortable for the hand (even guitarists). TU will make your playing a lot "faster" and you will be able to play rapid passagi and such...but in music like Dowland (and all music from that time and after 1600), this effect is not desirable (in fact I think they considered it hideous). Playing extremely fast has become popular the last few decades (sort of like speed metal). With TO your playing can become incredibly loud, full, and refined. And the thumb becomes an incredibly strong force (especially when playing on the treble strings). The two techniques also use different parts of the finger, it is not just where you put the thumb. With Thumb Under technique, you will be plucking with the underside of your fingers i-m-a (on the left side of the finger, when looking at the palm). With Thumb Over technique, you will be playing with the right end of the fingers i-m-a (when looking at the palm). The lutenists of the 17th century may have even played even farther off the finger (all the way on the side of the finger, way off the tip). But really, it depends on what is comfortable for you. That is the only thing that matters... You can try on your guitar, doing thumb-index alternation on all the strings, and see which hand position is more comfortable for you. What music do you want to play? Hope this helps. On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:27 AM, <[1][email protected]> wrote: Hi, I have no trouble playing baroque guitar coming from single string guitar. For Baroque guitar I play with a relaxed tip joint and a get a broad enough contact point to play the courses just fine. BTW, Nigel Norths hand position here: [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw Looks alot like Post-Segovia guitar technique commonly taught these days. Mark Delpriora -----Original Message----- From: vance wood <[3][email protected]> To: Lute List > <[4][email protected]> Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Just my opinion and not based on anything other than experience; those who made the switch in the Sixteenth-Century and beyond were already habituated toward a right hand approach that attacks both strings. This is not the case with a person coming at the Lute from the Guitar. The right hand on the Guitar is concerned with a single contact point, in other words the target is smaller. When switching to the Lute from this mind set it is somewhat difficult to re-educate the fingers to strike both strings, and the mind, to hear the difference and respond to it. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and play particular attention, in close ups, as to whether both strings in a course are engaged or whether only one string in a course is activated. There are many occasions where I see the latter. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[5][email protected]> To: "Lute List" <[6][email protected]>; "howard posner" <[7][email protected]>; "morgan cornwall" <[8][email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Morgan, --- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan cornwall <[9][email protected]> wrote: > > Question to all. If thumb-under assists in playing > the double courses simultaneously and without double > striking, how did the baroque lutenists (or Dowland for that > matter) avoid this problem when they switched to thumb-out? > Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart. Try thumb-under... if you want to make your lute sound "dull and rotten" (Stobaeus) ;-) In all seriousness, I would advise you to give it a serious try. The touch and feel is considerably different than classical guitar style and you'll probably like it. The majority of ren. players obviously used this technique and the music they left to us responds well with it. Thumb-out can also be made to work and two strings can be simultaneously struck just as effectively as with thumb-under, but it is generally more appropriate for music c.1600 and later. Also, thumb-out is NOT the same as classical guitar technique: you'll have to spend a lot of time practicing real lute thumb-out. As the quote from Stobaeus above suggests, it seems the practitioners of thumb-out had a different tonal ideal in mind. Chris > And thank you, Howard, for the comments. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "howard posner" > <[10][email protected]> > To: "Lute List" <[11][email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:20 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, morgan cornwall wrote: > > > I would like to make the best use of the time I > have. Given my > > circumstances, would you recommend > that I learn thumb-under technique? > > Does it make more sense to use this > technique from the start, or should > > I focus on the other aspects of lute > technique? If I don't learn > > thumb-under from the get go, will > this just be more to unlearn later? > > Should I not even worry about using > thumb-under? > > I remember some years ago, a lurker on the list named John > Dowland asked if he should change from thumb-under to > thumb-out technique, since everyone seemed to have been > switching, and he got a mixed bag of responses. I wish > I could forward them on to you, but it was more than 400 > years ago and my email archives don't go back that > far; Stewart McCoy probably has them. I believe > Dowland made that change, or so Stobaeus tells us. > > As for you, you should arrange your right hand so that it's > getting a full tone and not banging two strings of a course > together, which in turn involves striking the string from > the top, as if you're pushing them down toward the > soundboard. Your guitar technique will probably not > accomplish this. Resting the pinkie on the soundboard > is helpful in orienting the hand, so even if it feels odd at > first, you should try it. Experiment with whatever > works, and don't worry too much about where your thumb is, > unless it's interfering with your fingers. > > My first lute teacher told me to try thumb-under for at > least a week or so, mostly to get me doing something > different from what I was used to, the theory being, I > suppose, that doing something farthest removed from my > established habits would minimize the transfer of > lute-inappropriate technique to the lute. > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > To get on or off this list see list information at [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4954 (20100318) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. [14]http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4954 (20100318) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. [15]http://www.eset.com -- -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. mailto:[email protected] 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. mailto:[email protected] 10. mailto:[email protected] 11. mailto:[email protected] 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 14. http://www.eset.com/ 15. http://www.eset.com/ --
