All, I'm finding this discussion very informative and helpful. I'm also an experienced guitarist and come to theorbo and lute from a classical guitar background. I still play quite a lot of steel-string guitar, as there is just too much great music (Pierre Bensusan, Martin Simpson) for that instrument to ignore. Steel-string technique in incredibly varied among the many different players, and I've learned a lot from watching the right-hand of someone like Bensusan, who has a very relaxed and flexible right-hand technique that allows him to adapt to different musical situations. I think that we might learn a lot from watching the technique of someone who doesn't feel the need to be pedantic about it and lets his hands adapt to different situations. Perhaps steel-string guitarists have even more to teach us about the right-hand than do classical guitarists. That being said, I find the different lute techniques fascinating. Paul O'Dette seems to be able to use his thumb-under technique for everything, including Bach and the theorbo, whereas Nigel North seems to use a variation of thumb-over technique for everything he does, including Dowland. Perhaps my ignorance is showing here, but Nigel North's technique seems to be closer to right-hand classical guitar technique than many others I have seen. Of course, there is no such thing as one "classical guitar right hand technique." My guitar teachers in university steered me far away from the severely bend "Segovia" right hand and more towards a flexible right-hand that moved between a high-arch to allow for maximum finger extension to a low-arch that allowed for more dynamic and muting control, and everything in between. For them, the music made the demands of the technical approach, and one needed to be flexible enough to adapt. My questions, I suppose, would be: are we lutenists too pedantic about technique? Should we perhaps adopt and flexible right-hand that can adapt to the many different situations in which we find ourselves? I understand the necessity of studying treatises and iconography to learn more about the way in which the music was played, but surely the surviving evidence doesn't encapsulate the ways in which the thousands of lute players all over Europe played such a popular instrument over the course so many years. Historical evidence is one thing, but the historians among us will certainly recognize that Hayden White and Paul Ricoeur long ago raised the awareness of the fact that historical record can never provide a complete picture of the past, and that we need to adopt, perhaps, a more phenomenological approach based on our own experiences in an ongoing historical situation. Perhaps that means that a 21st century lute player who plays a greater amount of repertoire than any historical lutenist ever did, and perhaps also plays instruments of which lutenists had never heard (such as steel-string guitar) need to adopt the kind of techniques that suit there situations. I really do favour a plurality of approaches to technique, an approach that might earn me the wrath of this board. Nevertheless, it occurs to me that if, in 400 years, all that is left of the evidence concerning the ways in which the electric guitar was played by millions of people in the 20th and 21st centuries is a video of the fairly orthodox technique of a few, our descendants might never know of the miraculous musical results produced by guitarists with extremely unorthodox techniques such as Jeff Beck (no right-hand plectrum) or Pat Metheny (a three-fingered grip on the plectrum instead of the usual two). Just my thoughts. Sorry for testing your patience with my long-winded ramblings. Best, Graham Freeman
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 2:45 PM, <[1][email protected]> wrote: Interesting! I taught Waltons's 5th Bagatelle yesterday and recommended p-i or p-m for the repeated notes on the treble strings. You are right, A guitarist would probably not go from string 1 with p to the 6th string with i. Would a lutenist? ...why not throw the m in just before the string crossing? best, Mark Delpriora -----Original Message----- From: [2][email protected] To: [3][email protected]; [4][email protected]; [5][email protected] Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? Mark, Yes, but they don't make a habit of it in the same way. You'd never go from string 1 with p to the 6th string with i in CG. Nothing wrong with that, its just a different technique. I currently have a new lute student (an accomplished classical guitarist) who has no lute at the moment, but will be getting one shortly. Until then, we're just using his guitar. He wants to eventually get into thumb under, but, by way of introduction, I'm having him begin simply by playing pieces with thumb-index alternation, still using ordinary classical guitar right hand positioning. It has been extremely difficult for him to NOT use his m or a fingers in single-note lines, especially when a string crossing or voice exchange is involved. This is simply a matter of habit for him. I think taking the time to be careful about this will actually help out his guitar playing in the long run. Pat O'Brien's "Dalza" exercises are very helpful for this and quite mind-opening for a lot of guitarists. Chris --- On Thu, 3/18/10, [6][email protected] <[7][email protected]> wrote: > From: [8][email protected] <[9][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > To: [10][email protected], [11][email protected] > Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 12:46 PM > That's not true ,modern guitarists > use their thumb on the treble strings. > It is a necessary skill for music by Rodrigo to Britten... > not to mention transcription (God forbid!) > > > Best, > Mark Delpriora > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Kieffer <[12][email protected]> > To: [13][email protected] > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 12:15 pm > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? > > > Morgan, > > I think most important thing is, as > mentioned above, plucking both > strings of each course, and plucking the > strings as strong as you can > into the soundboard (this includes with > the thumb as well). I think > classical guitarist aren't used to using > the thumb on the treble > strings, but it is important in lute > music. > > It can be done with both TO and TU > technique, and I think the best > thing would be to try for yourself and > see what is best. The bottom > line is, If you develop a good tone, > nobody will care what technique > you are using. The most important > part is the tone. Have a tone that > people will envy. > > I personally think if you are playing > repertoire like Dowland and > Laurencini, TO sounds a lot better in the > long run, but it is difficult > and frustrating to learn. Many > people find TU to be easier and more > comfortable for the hand (even > guitarists). > > TU will make your playing a lot "faster" > and you will be able to play > rapid passagi and such...but in music > like Dowland (and all music from > that time and after 1600), this effect is > not desirable (in fact I > think they considered it hideous). > Playing extremely fast has become > popular the last few decades (sort of > like speed metal). > > With TO your playing can become > incredibly loud, full, and refined. > And the thumb becomes an incredibly > strong force (especially when > playing on the treble strings). > > The two techniques also use different > parts of the finger, it is not > just where you put the thumb. With > Thumb Under technique, you will be > plucking with the underside of your > fingers i-m-a (on the left side of > the finger, when looking at the > palm). With Thumb Over technique, you > will be playing with the right end of the > fingers i-m-a (when looking > at the palm). The lutenists of the > 17th century may have even played > even farther off the finger (all the way > on the side of the finger, way > off the tip). > > But really, it depends on what is > comfortable for you. That is the > only thing that matters... > > You can try on your guitar, doing > thumb-index alternation on all the > strings, and see which hand position is > more comfortable for you. > > What music do you want to play? > > Hope this helps. > > On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:27 AM, > <[1][14][email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi, > I have no trouble playing baroque > guitar coming from single string > guitar. For Baroque guitar I play > with a relaxed tip joint and a get > a broad enough contact point to > play the courses just fine. > BTW, Nigel Norths hand position > here: > [2][15]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw > Looks alot like Post-Segovia > guitar technique commonly taught these > days. > Mark Delpriora > > -----Original Message----- > From: vance wood <[3][16][email protected]> > To: Lute List > <[4][17][email protected]> > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:49 am > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn > thumb-under technique? > Just my opinion and not based on anything > other than experience; those > who made the switch in the > Sixteenth-Century and beyond were already > habituated toward a right hand approach > that attacks both strings. > This is not the case with a person coming > at the Lute from the Guitar. > The right hand on the Guitar is concerned > with a single contact point, > in other words the target is > smaller. When switching to the Lute from > this mind set it is somewhat difficult to > re-educate the fingers to > strike both strings, and the mind, to > hear the difference and respond > to it. I watch a lot of YouTube > videos and play particular attention, > in close ups, as to whether both strings > in a course are engaged or > whether only one string in a course is > activated. There are many > occasions where I see the latter. > ----- Original Message ----- From: > <[5][18][email protected]> > To: "Lute List" <[6][19][email protected]>; > "howard posner" > <[7][20][email protected]>; > "morgan cornwall" > <[8][21][email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:55 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn > thumb-under technique? > Morgan, > --- On Wed, 3/17/10, morgan cornwall > <[9][22][email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Question to all. If thumb-under > assists in playing > > the double courses simultaneously > and without double > > striking, how did the baroque > lutenists (or Dowland for that > > matter) avoid this problem when they > switched to thumb-out? > > > Ah, a subject near and dear to my > heart. Try thumb-under... if you > want to make your lute sound "dull and > rotten" (Stobaeus) ;-) In all > seriousness, I would advise you to give > it a serious try. The touch > and feel is considerably different than > classical guitar style and > you'll probably like it. The > majority of ren. players obviously used > this technique and the music they left to > us responds well with it. > Thumb-out can also be made to work and > two strings can be > simultaneously struck just as effectively > as with thumb-under, but it > is generally more appropriate for music > c.1600 and later. Also, > thumb-out is NOT the same as classical > guitar technique: you'll have to > spend a lot of time practicing real lute > thumb-out. As the quote from > Stobaeus above suggests, it seems the > practitioners of thumb-out had a > different tonal ideal in mind. > Chris > > And thank you, Howard, for the > comments. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > "howard posner" > > <[10][23][email protected]> > > To: "Lute List" <[11][24][email protected]> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:20 > PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn > thumb-under technique? > > > > > > On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, morgan > cornwall wrote: > > > > > I would like to make the best > use of the time I > > have. Given my > > > circumstances, would you > recommend > > that I learn thumb-under technique? > > > Does it make more sense to use > this > > technique from the start, or should > > > I focus on the other aspects of > lute > > technique? If I don't learn > > > thumb-under from the get go, > will > > this just be more to unlearn later? > > > Should I not even worry about > using > > thumb-under? > > > > I remember some years ago, a lurker > on the list named John > > Dowland asked if he should change > from thumb-under to > > thumb-out technique, since everyone > seemed to have been > > switching, and he got a mixed bag of > responses. I wish > > I could forward them on to you, but > it was more than 400 > > years ago and my email archives > don't go back that > > far; Stewart McCoy probably has > them. I believe > > Dowland made that change, or so > Stobaeus tells us. > > > > As for you, you should arrange your > right hand so that it's > > getting a full tone and not banging > two strings of a course > > together, which in turn involves > striking the string from > > the top, as if you're pushing them > down toward the > > soundboard. Your guitar technique > will probably not > > accomplish this. Resting the pinkie > on the soundboard > > is helpful in orienting the hand, so > even if it feels odd at > > first, you should try it. Experiment > with whatever > > works, and don't worry too much > about where your thumb is, > > unless it's interfering with your > fingers. > > > > My first lute teacher told me to try > thumb-under for at > > least a week or so, mostly to get me > doing something > > different from what I was used to, > the theory being, I > > suppose, that doing something > farthest removed from my > > established habits would minimize > the transfer of > > lute-inappropriate technique to the > lute. > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list > information at > > [12][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list > information at > [13][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 > Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4954 (20100318) > __________ > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 > Antivirus. > [14][27]http://www.eset.com > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 > Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4954 (20100318) > __________ > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 > Antivirus. > [15][28]http://www.eset.com > -- > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:[29][email protected] > 2. [30]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw > 3. mailto:[31][email protected] > 4. mailto:[32][email protected] > 5. mailto:[33][email protected] > 6. mailto:[34][email protected] > 7. mailto:[35][email protected] > 8. mailto:[36][email protected] > 9. mailto:[37][email protected] > 10. mailto:[38][email protected] > 11. mailto:[39][email protected] > 12. [40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 13. [41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 14. [42]http://www.eset.com/ > 15. [43]http://www.eset.com/ > > > > > -- > -- To get on or off this list see list information at [44]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Graham Freeman Ph. D Musicology University of Toronto [45][email protected] -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. mailto:[email protected] 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. mailto:[email protected] 10. mailto:[email protected] 11. mailto:[email protected] 12. mailto:[email protected] 13. mailto:[email protected] 14. mailto:[email protected] 15. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw 16. mailto:[email protected] 17. mailto:[email protected] 18. mailto:[email protected] 19. mailto:[email protected] 20. mailto:[email protected] 21. mailto:[email protected] 22. mailto:[email protected] 23. mailto:[email protected] 24. mailto:[email protected] 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 26. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 27. http://www.eset.com/ 28. http://www.eset.com/ 29. mailto:[email protected] 30. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXb3zih2umw 31. mailto:[email protected] 32. mailto:[email protected] 33. mailto:[email protected] 34. mailto:[email protected] 35. mailto:[email protected] 36. mailto:[email protected] 37. mailto:[email protected] 38. mailto:[email protected] 39. mailto:[email protected] 40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 41. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 42. http://www.eset.com/ 43. http://www.eset.com/ 44. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 45. mailto:[email protected]
