Thanks Martin,
I agree that generally both strings ought to be heard - but using the
finger (which contacts the upper string first) can produce a
significantly different effect than using the thumb (which contacts the
lower string first) to pluck the same note (ie number). Perhaps this
is part of the charm of octave stringing (besides reinforcing a dull
bass). Of course, by taking extreme pains one could miss out all the
upper octaves played by the fingers on the lower courses (if octave
strung) - but this seems to me an unlikely historical practice.
I agree that low tension upper octaves can stand out more than low
tension: I believe this is to do with the increased absorption of
higher frequencies by thicker strings thus making them sound less
brilliant/edgy (volume is, of course, directly related mathematically
to displacement - a higher tension string has no inherent greater
volume for the same displacement; it's just that it can be displaced
further without causing initial pitch distortion and/or string rattle
etc)
regards,
Martyn
--- On Mon, 21/1/13, Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vihuela stringing - was 6c (lute) stringing?
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 13:07
Dear Martyn,
I never said it was easy! It's not a question of "avoiding playing
all
the upper octaves" but a question of emphasis and blending. I
assume
(perhaps wrongly) that it is always desirable to play both strings
of a
course. As others have said, the nature of a particular instrument
and
the nature of particular strings may be very important variables
here.
One thing I would suggest is that it is a mistake to think (as
people
did in the early days of octave stringing on lutes in the 1970s)
that
octaves will "stick out" less if they are much lower tension than
the
lower octave string. The reverse may even be true.
Best wishes,
Martin
On 21/01/2013 13:38, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Martin,
Thanks for this: I'll revisit Pisador's instructions and see what
they
imply.
Re your observation that 'I think it is wrong to assume that playing
a
string with the finger rather than the thumb will emphasize one or
other octave - it's all a matter of technique.' Well, I do think
you're
mistaken here: else why do the Old Ones (not to mention the Modern
Ones) agonise about the placement of octaves on, say, the 5 course
guitar if it's as easy to avoid high (or low) octaves as you
suggest?
Similarly, if less obvious, for the lute.
Or are you saying that it's as easy for you personally to, say,
pluck a
three note chord consisting of just the 4th, 5th and 6th course on a
lute with octaves and avoid playing all the upper octaves, as it is
not to. If so, I take my hat of to you.
regards,
Martyn
--- On Mon, 21/1/13, Martin Shepherd [1]<[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
wrote:
From: Martin Shepherd [2]<[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vihuela stringing - was 6c (lute) stringing?
To: [3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 12:00
Dear Martyn and all,
I think the notion that the vihuela was strung in unisons is based
on a
source (which one, anyone?) which contrasts the vihuela with the
"Flemish vihuela" i.e. the lute. Can someone help with the
reference?
As far as I know there is no documentary evidence on the
unison/octave
issue except that Piasdor's tuning instructions imply a unison 4th
course (but say nothing about the other courses).
I think it is wrong to assume that playing a string with the finger
rather than the thumb will emphasize one or other octave - it's all
a
matter of technique.
All the best,
Martin
On 21/01/2013 10:44, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> Dear Martin,
>
> You may recall that quite some years ago it was generally
accepted that
> the vihuela (but not the viola) was strung in unison - I
believe
this
> was a misreading of an early source and was explained through
the
great
> wealth of Spain in the periof whereby such expensive strings
could be
> generally afforded.
>
> We seem to have moved on from this to at least generally
allowing
an
> octave on the 6th course of the vihuela. Do we have any early
vihuela
> source which describes octaves (or unisons) on the 5tn and 4th
> courses? One of the practical difficulties might be the
occasional
> contemporary use of playing passages on the 5th course with an
> accompanying bass on the 6th course: in these circumstances
it
is
> tricky to avoid the finger plucked 5th course upper octave
> dominating if one is used - or perhaps this was one of the
charms
of
> the instrument ( a bit like re-entrant tuning on the later 5
course
> guitar)?......... - or when two courses were to be plucked
> simultaneously, is one expected to use the same thumb stroke
to
cover
> the two courses?....
>
> regards,
>
> Martyn
>
> PS Can't get out more - the snow's too deep over the moor
tops.....
> --- On Sun, 20/1/13, Martin Shepherd
<[4][4]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> From: Martin Shepherd <[5][5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: 6c stringing?
> To: [6][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: Sunday, 20 January, 2013, 19:52
>
> Hi All,
> I agree with Sam on three points: I've never found it
"necessary"
to
> have an octave on the 4th course, it's difficult to get a
unison
5th to
> work well (in gut), and unison 6th I've never liked. The only
person
> to mention unison 6th is Dowland in 1610, and he's talking
about
his 9c
> lute. No one else seems to have done it - it seems to have
been
usual
> for all kinds of baroque lutes to have octaves starting at the
6th
> (though Mace might be a counterexample).
> As far as 6c lute is concerned, I think there's plenty of room
for
> conjecture. Early tablatures (e.g. Spinacino) have plenty of
internal
> evidence for octaves on courses 4-6. Unison stringing of more
courses
> is said to have been introduced by Fabritio Dentice, who died
c.1600 -
> we might therefore suspect that particularly in Italian music
of
the
> second half of the 16th C, unisons may have been more widely
used.
> Octaves seem to have persisted longer in England than anywhere
else
> (Dowland says as much) and there is internal evidence in the
music of
> Cutting, Johnson, Holborne etc which seems to confirm this.
> Whether the octave "sticks out" is another matter - it's a lot
to
do
> with strings and even more to do with technique. For
instance,
all my
> Francesco recordings were done with octaves on courses 4-6,
but I
don't
> think you would always know from listening. The music is
mostly
> written as though the octaves were not there, and the main
objective is
> to realise the counterpoint effectively.
> Best wishes,
> Martin
> On 20/01/2013 18:01, Sam Chapman wrote:
> > Dear Bill,
> >
> > I generally make these kind of decisions depending on what
kind
of
> > strings I have available and what sounds best on my lutes.
> > Since I play very little early 16th-century repertoire I
never
use an
> > octave on the 4th course: whatever string I use for the 4th
course,
> > I've never felt that the sound is so dull that it needs a
high
octave
> > to brighten it. Like you, I think it would get in the way in
much
> > repertoire (though I know that there is probably some
earlier
music
> > which requires the octave 4th course to make sense of
certain
> > contrapuntal figures).
> > I've found that I can use unison stringing effectively on
the
5th
> > course only with the very best-quality pure gut strings. If
the
> course
> > sounds dull I would use an octave on it, whatever the
repertoire.
> > I've never been satisfied with unison stringing on the 6th
course.
> > Even with modern wound strings, I've found that they tend to
clash
> > together (though I'm sure there are some types of historical
wound
> > strings which work better). So, I always use an octave on
the
6th
> > course, simply because the course sounds better like that
and
is
> > easier to control. I imagine that those historical writers
who
talk
> > about using unisons on the 6th course (and below) must have
had
> access
> > to better strings than I've been able to get hold of!
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 20 January 2013 16:21, William Samson
<[1][7][7]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >> Dear Collective Wisdom,
> >>
> >> I believe that 6c lutes are often strung with octaves
on
the
> 6th, 5th
> >> and 4th courses.
> >>
> >> Would you use that stringing for all parts of the lute
> repertoire that
> >> needs only six courses, or would other arrangements be
> appropriate for
> >> parts of the repertoire?
> >>
> >> I'm particularly fond of the 6c English music that is
found in
> many
> >> mid-late 16th century sources. Playing with an octave
on
the
> 4th
> >> sounds intrusive to my ear, but maybe I need to train
my
ear to
> accept
> >> it?
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>
[2][8][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[9][9]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsamson@yahoo.
co.uk
> 2.
[10][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:[11]mar...@luteshop.co.uk
2. mailto:[12]mar...@luteshop.co.uk
3. mailto:[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4.
[14]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
5.
[15]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
6.
[16]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7.
[17]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
8. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
9.
[19]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
10. [20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
