What Monica says is true: english history writing had this bias against Spain (Hispanophobia) that can easily be explained because Spain was the hegemonic country in the 16th Century. In Spain this example of negative propaganda is labeled under the expression "black legend" (Julian Juderias, La leyenda negra 1914). In the english wiki this topic is well exposed.
The spanish austrian court was very very strict in its etiquette rules, but was the model for the other european courts. Reading the spanish theatre of this centuries is a pleasure: often it is very funny! Ok, you english speaking people have a very particular sense of humor, which I really enjoy, but the rest of the world also knows how to smile and laugh… The humans were as complex and contradictory then as they are now. I think we shall avoid those easy reductionisms, that are being invented to better control people. BTW, comparing Spain in the 16th Century with the shoah is a bit too much, don't you think so? Manolo El 05/05/2015, a las 14:15, Chris Barker <[email protected]> escribió: > Cromwell and the Puritans were the worst thing that ever happened to England. > The Puritans who came to the U.S. (British colonies then) persecuted and > murdered scores of non-Puritans. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf > Of Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 4:55 AM > To: Mark Wheeler > Cc: Monica Hall; ml; Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and > culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... > > ======== > > τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. > Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. > 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article >> >> https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf >> >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of >> criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the English >> Queen. >> >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not >> fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! >> >> All the best >> Mark >> >> >> >> >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: >>> >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set >>> of criteria. >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us >>> study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from >>> England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. >>> >>> Monica briefly >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" <[email protected]> >>> To: "LUTELIST List" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy >>> >>> >>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I >>>> mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to >>>> what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and >>>> so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. >>>> >>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail >>>> when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen >>>> everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the >>>> heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and >>>> 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely >>>> monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, >>>> heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted >>>> instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this >>>> general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more >>>> pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the >>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems >>>> that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than >>>> other countries." >>>> >>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un >>>> mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered >>>> under the inquisition as well. >>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known. >>>> >>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. >>>> >>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) >>>> >>>> Manolo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <[email protected]> escribió: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is >>>>> the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex >>>>> idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A word of caution here: >>>>> >>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., >>>>> the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of >>>>> it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. >>>>> >>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from >>>>> a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a >>>>> large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and >>>>> stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider >>>>> repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. >>>>> Who knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't >>>>> have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the >>>>> vihuela tablatures make it seem . . . >>>>> >>>>> Gary >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye >>>>> Professor and Music Librarian >>>>> Appalachian State University >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: >>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any >>>>>> rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when >>>>>> all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists & >>>>>> academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the >>>>>> King of Spain lost his mind?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a >>>>>> lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to Italy & Germany for a >>>>>> little jumping around. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dan >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: >>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had >>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. >>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), >>>>>>> and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that >>>>>>> they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put >>>>>>> their hands on. >>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's >>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published books. >>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, >>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time. >>>>>>> RA >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute >>>>>>>> music >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ? >>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >> >> >> > > > >
