Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias
> -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf > Of > Chris Barker > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > Cc: 'Lutelist' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that > time I'd > call him a thug too! > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf > Of > Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in > Afghanistan. > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > Monica > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[email protected]> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[email protected]> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>; "ml" <[email protected]>; > "Lutelist" <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... > > > > ======== > > > > τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. > > Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. > > 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > > > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article > >> > >> https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf > >> > >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set > >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the > >> English Queen. > >> > >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England > >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! > >> > >> All the best > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > >>> > >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an > >>> inappropriate set of criteria. > >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most > >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. > >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people > >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. > >>> > >>> Monica briefly > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" <[email protected]> > >>> To: "LUTELIST List" <[email protected]> > >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > >>> > >>> > >>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative > >>>> thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or > >>>> France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality > >>>> (for instance > >>>> sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly > >>>> everything. > >>>> > >>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the > >>>> nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was > >>>> seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the > >>>> witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is > >>>> focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the > >>>> witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european > >>>> countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the > >>>> protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two > >>>> countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general fear: > >>>> Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan > >>>> than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the > >>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it > >>>> seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree > >>>> than > other countries." > >>>> > >>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo > >>>> di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, > >>>> Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. > >>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known. > >>>> > >>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. > >>>> > >>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) > >>>> > >>>> Manolo > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <[email protected]> escribió: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's > >>>>> book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a > >>>>> refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or > >>>>> Venetiana dance cycles. > >>>>> > >>>>> Sean > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> A word of caution here: > >>>>> > >>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence > >>>>> (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of > >>>>> music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these > >>>>> formal, published works. > >>>>> > >>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an > >>>>> imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial > >>>>> government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; > >>>>> much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred > >>>>> intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, > >>>>> as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who > >>>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition > >>>>> wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced > >>>>> as > the vihuela tablatures make it seem . > >>>>> . . > >>>>> > >>>>> Gary > >>>>> > >>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye > >>>>> Professor and Music Librarian > >>>>> Appalachian State University > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: > >>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that > >>>>>> had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was > >>>>>> said that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars, > >>>>>> scientists, and artists & academics showed up on his doorstep, > >>>>>> the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the King of Spain lost his mind?" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela > >>>>>> music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to Italy & > >>>>>> Germany for a little jumping around. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dan > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > >>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had > >>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. > >>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers > >>>>>>> (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their > >>>>>>> hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they > >>>>>>> could put their hands on. > >>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's > >>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published books. > >>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, > >>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time. > >>>>>>> RA > >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 > >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>> From: [email protected] > >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute > >>>>>>>> music > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ? > >>>>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >
