Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in
Afghanistan.
They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural
heritage.
And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[email protected]>
To: "Mark Wheeler" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>; "ml" <[email protected]>;
"Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music
and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying...
========
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Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote:
Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article
https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of
criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the English
Queen.
It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did
not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain!
All the best
Mark
On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate
set of criteria.
Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of
us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view.
Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from
England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains.
Monica briefly
----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" <[email protected]>
To: "LUTELIST List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I
mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard
to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance
sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly
everything.
Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail
when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen
everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the
heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and
'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so
closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried
with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were
prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped
from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of
being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or
because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any
case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a
lesser degree than other countries."
But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un
mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy
suffered under the inquisition as well.
Galileo's case is of course very well known.
It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past.
Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-)
Manolo
El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <[email protected]> escribió:
That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is
the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and
complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance
cycles.
Sean
On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote:
A word of caution here:
We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence
(i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music
(most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal,
published works.
Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur
from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was
unlikely with a large collection of dance music; much easier to play
it conservative and stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela
manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, as does the existence of
guitar music from a later period. Who knows what was happening on the
streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have had much to do if everyone
in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela tablatures make it seem .
. .
Gary
Dr. Gary R. Boye
Professor and Music Librarian
Appalachian State University
On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote:
In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had
any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said
that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and
artists & academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey
asked "Has the King of Spain lost his mind?"
Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela
music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to Italy &
Germany for a little jumping around.
Dan
On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had
recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy.
They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan),
and
serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that they
intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put their
hands
on.
Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's print,
some but much less in the other six published books. Also, there
was
quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, which was Spanish at
the
time.
RA
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy
Hi all,
In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute music
and
so rare in the vihuela rep. ?
Thanks
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