I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too!
Chris -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[email protected]> To: "Mark Wheeler" <[email protected]> Cc: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>; "ml" <[email protected]>; "Lutelist" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... > > ======== > > τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. > Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. > 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article >> >> https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf >> >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the >> English Queen. >> >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! >> >> All the best >> Mark >> >> >> >> >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: >>> >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an >>> inappropriate set of criteria. >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. >>> >>> Monica briefly >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" <[email protected]> >>> To: "LUTELIST List" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy >>> >>> >>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative >>>> thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or >>>> France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality >>>> (for instance >>>> sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly >>>> everything. >>>> >>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the >>>> nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was >>>> seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the >>>> witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is >>>> focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the >>>> witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european >>>> countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the >>>> protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two >>>> countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general fear: >>>> Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan >>>> than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the >>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it >>>> seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree >>>> than other countries." >>>> >>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo >>>> di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, >>>> Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. >>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known. >>>> >>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. >>>> >>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) >>>> >>>> Manolo >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <[email protected]> escribió: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's >>>>> book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a >>>>> refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or >>>>> Venetiana dance cycles. >>>>> >>>>> Sean >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A word of caution here: >>>>> >>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence >>>>> (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of >>>>> music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these >>>>> formal, published works. >>>>> >>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an >>>>> imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial >>>>> government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; >>>>> much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred >>>>> intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire, >>>>> as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who >>>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition >>>>> wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as >>>>> the vihuela tablatures make it seem . >>>>> . . >>>>> >>>>> Gary >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye >>>>> Professor and Music Librarian >>>>> Appalachian State University >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: >>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that >>>>>> had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was >>>>>> said that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars, >>>>>> scientists, and artists & academics showed up on his doorstep, >>>>>> the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the King of Spain lost his mind?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela >>>>>> music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to Italy & >>>>>> Germany for a little jumping around. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dan >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: >>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had >>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. >>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers >>>>>>> (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their >>>>>>> hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they >>>>>>> could put their hands on. >>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's >>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published books. >>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, >>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time. >>>>>>> RA >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute >>>>>>>> music >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ? >>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >> >> >> > >
