Or this?

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/bertali-sonata-in-g-a-8-nicolai-sonata-in-c-a-2-raga-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik

Am 10.08.2018 um 04:39 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
Dear Jurgen,

do you consider this an illusion too?

https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-nos-59-63-62-raga-kamod-eri-jaane-na-doongi-nirali-kartik

How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and where the lute goes into cadence.

How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a regal organ in this context?

You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, *not interested*?? In a world that is constantly in need of music because there were no mobile phones or even recordings?...

This I only found because I believe that the influence is true.
If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved anything - because I would not have tried.



Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
Dear Jurgen,

I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of the discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent. Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have been brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading goods, to return to India later and tell about what would be available for Indian kings and their populace. Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of people and culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission). The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger etc. together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took place already in 1505/06.

There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th century.

What exactly is your argument against musical transfer?



Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
Dear Tristan,

in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the described illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans to be in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the Portuguese starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to start with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically refuse to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540 fantasia by Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's obvious, one just would need to listen carefully enough.' I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I just refuse to believe the impossible.

Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a period of that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere.

Best regards and respectfully
Jurgen


----------------------------------
“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:

Dear Jürgen,

posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in anyway
touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does enable you
to apply it to everything you disagree with.
If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the subject
itself, otherwise it is not helpful.
It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no basis"
to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless of the
validity of the claim.

Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw many
commonly done things into the bin:
The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing. If a
soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs from a
chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted, why do you
deny any connection with Indian music?

 From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and fantasies
of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as the
framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of this
similarity, and the book is even organized to display these similarities.
The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the disagreement
of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept like
Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks of
different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale.
This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because Bhatkhande
organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough the
properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often different.
The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not
recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the problematic
concept of mode.

 From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite from Lisa Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found what I was
looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early deep
reception of Indian music.

So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least fitting
together, why not do something productive like play Fantasies in Indian
tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like?
The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together live.

The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance" concert where
Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by side, though not
simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone does live what
I do in the mashups.
Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll post the link then.

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16352971.review-york-early-music-festival-hathor-consort-dhrupad-fantasia-gloriana-and-akbar-the-great-national-centre-for-early-music/

Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:

For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment how false claims, repeated over and over again, become accepted by some individuals. Tristan, I see your attempts to convince people precisely in this line of practice.
To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect
Enjoy reading
Jurgen

“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”
Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann tristanvonneum...@gmx.de wrote:

This version is even better.
Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the Donne di Ferrara or
similar groups...
https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/francesco-siena-no-62-eri-jaane-na-doongi-raga-kamod-nirali-kartik-version-iii
Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:

Dear Lutists,
Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet unification as Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the Francesco background. https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-62-francesco-raga-kamod-ronu-majumdar
Sorry for the not so beautiful playing, it's quite heavy for me to
concentrate on the groove while playing right.
But I hope to prove a point - that is that the criteria of choice in the Siena Ms. seem to be conciously implying that modes also have a certain overarching structure that must be followed, hence the great similarity
in many of the fantasies of the same mode.
Maybe a better lutist than yours truly can do a better mix - the Raga is
to be found on youtube and can be used as a playback.
I did not change the pitch, so this should work with a G lute.
Also other places to insert this or similar fantasies may appear when
trying something.
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