Dear Ido,

I am well aware that the Harmonium is not an Indian instrument.

Also You are telling me what I told everyone on the list a while ago.
If you criticize my mashups you should at least read what I have written before on that topic.

BTW it is not even true that the harmonium is equal-tempered.
See "Encyclopedia of Indian Music with special reference to Ragas", Delhi 1918/1986/88 The temperament is not really an important issue, except for Europeans putting it into polyphony. Why all the experiments and disagreements in Europe exactly in this time of reception? This is a theoretical matter that will be explored, but it is at this stage not helpful.

Also You might want to consider that musical ears were very perceptive in a world without sound pollution. You cannot begin to have an idea, except if you are living in a remote monastery the whole time. Also, it is pure assumption of You without any bases what and what not are the abilities of musicians around the time.

Mozart could write down a score of Allegri's Miserere from memory.
And the divine Francesco could not? The grand Albert was tone-deaf?
Ragas are ostinate, so...
How long do You need to listen to be able to join in a Passamezzo, a Romanesca, or a Ciacona...? I can bastard-sing to any of those fantasies or even Baroque Sonatas without hearing them first, why can't someone who wrote them adapt a Raga?

Making mashups and using recordings is a usual method in Ethnomusicology.
Using a "score"/transcription is not what I plan to do for everything.
It is not my problem if someone does not hear when the same notes are sung.
You don't need a score to every ciacona, you need the model.
The Raga models are defined by Vadi and Samvadi of the respective scale and some basic moves, everything in detail can be transcribed as an example, but it is an ultimately useless work to transcribe every improvisation.

If this is not accepted with You, or some sourpuss sceptic musicologist or some pseudo-purist lutist (as if the 16th century had been such a purist age!!!), it is not my problem.

I am not using the terminology because I have to explain it first. I did that with the basics a while ago, but I don't expect everybody to be familiar with it. I am presenting you with the fun part of my research, not the stuff people would have to dig into.
That is left to the article.

And again: Lisa Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation shows, and she has told me that personally on the phone, intense musical transfer, which is backed up by documents she found in the Vatican. You can't read it yet, but please assume I am not making this up, as it will be published anyway in the next time.
You don't accuse me of lying to you, are you??

Am 10.08.2018 um 13:41 schrieb Ido Shdaimah:
    Dear Tristan,
    The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
    In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact
    points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras. The
    maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of
    them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each
    Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate with
    in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
    Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the
    mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
    I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags
    and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
    probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory
    You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep
    musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE
    direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting here
    that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of them.
    This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep
    knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger contact.
    Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge
    acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious about IC
    Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to write
    it down and   clearly compare structures from Western pieces to Raags,
    using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras, Raags,
    Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are doing
    is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou heard
    without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling that no
    body else seems to hear what you hear.
    P. S.
    Are my messages coming out indented correctly?
    On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann
    <[1]> wrote:

      Dear Jurgen,
      do you consider this an illusion too?
      How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and where
      lute goes into cadence.
      How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a regal
      in this context?
      You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, *not
      In a world that is constantly in need of music because there were no
      mobile phones or even recordings?...
      This I only found because I believe that the influence is true.
      If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved anything -
      because I would not have tried.
      Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
      > Dear Jurgen,
      > I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of the
      > discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent.
      > Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have been
      > brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading goods,
      > return to India later and tell about what would be available for
      > kings and their populace.
      > Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of
      people and
      > culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission).
      > The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger etc.
      > together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took place
      > already in 1505/06.
      > There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in
      > Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th
      > What exactly is your argument against musical transfer?
      > Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
      >> Dear Tristan,
      >> in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the
      >> illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans
      to be
      >> in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the
      >> starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to
      >> with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically
      >> to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540
      fantasia by
      >> Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's
      >> one just would need to listen carefully enough.'
      >> I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I
      >> refuse to believe the impossible.
      >> Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a
      period of
      >> that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere.
      >> Best regards and respectfully
      >> Jurgen
      >> ----------------------------------
      >> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
      >> JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
      >> âââââââ Original Message âââââââ
      >> On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann
      >> <[3]> wrote:
      >>> Dear Jürgen,
      >>> posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in
      >>> touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does
      enable you
      >>> to apply it to everything you disagree with.
      >>> If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the
      >>> itself, otherwise it is not helpful.
      >>> It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no
      >>> to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless
      of the
      >>> validity of the claim.
      >>> Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw
      >>> commonly done things into the bin:
      >>> The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing. If
      >>> soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs
      from a
      >>> chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted, why
      do you
      >>> deny any connection with Indian music?
      >>>  From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and
      >>> of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as the
      >>> framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of
      >>> similarity, and the book is even organized to display these
      >>> similarities.
      >>> The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the
      >>> of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept
      >>> Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks
      >>> different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale.
      >>> This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because
      >>> organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough
      >>> properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often
      >>> The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not
      >>> recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the
      >>> concept of mode.
      >>>  From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite
      from Lisa
      >>> Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found
      what I was
      >>> looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early
      >>> reception of Indian music.
      >>> So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least
      >>> together, why not do something productive like play Fantasies in
      >>> tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like?
      >>> The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together live.
      >>> The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance" concert
      >>> Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by side,
      though not
      >>> simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone does
      live what
      >>> I do in the mashups.
      >>> Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll post
      >>> link then.
      >>> Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
      >>>> For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment how
      >>>> claims, repeated over and over again, become accepted by some
      >>>> individuals. Tristan, I see your attempts to convince people
      >>>> precisely in this line of practice.
      >>>> To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki article
      >>>> [5]
      >>>> Enjoy reading
      >>>> Jurgen
      >>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
      >>>> JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
      >>>> âââââââ Original Message âââââââ
      >>>> On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann
      >>>> [6] wrote:
      >>>>> This version is even better.
      >>>>> Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the Donne di
      >>>>> Ferrara or
      >>>>> similar groups...
      >>>>> Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
      >>>>>> Dear Lutists,
      >>>>>> Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet
      >>>>>> unification as
      >>>>>> Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the Francesco
      >>>>>> background.
      >>>>>> Sorry for the not so beautiful playing, it's quite heavy for
      me to
      >>>>>> concentrate on the groove while playing right.
      >>>>>> But I hope to prove a point - that is that the criteria of
      >>>>>> in the
      >>>>>> Siena Ms. seem to be conciously implying that modes also have
      >>>>>> certain
      >>>>>> overarching structure that must be followed, hence the great
      >>>>>> similarity
      >>>>>> in many of the fantasies of the same mode.
      >>>>>> Maybe a better lutist than yours truly can do a better mix -
      >>>>>> Raga is
      >>>>>> to be found on youtube and can be used as a playback.
      >>>>>> I did not change the pitch, so this should work with a G
      >>>>>> Also other places to insert this or similar fantasies may
      appear when
      >>>>>> trying something.
      >>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
      >>>>>> [9]




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