Thanks Dan for the input.

What do I want? Share this with musicians for improved music making experiences.
I want to bring attention to the idea, not to myself.
As I said many times - if someone wants to dig with me, go ahead and find interesting stuff and tell us.

I'm addressing the lute list, since this is about Early Music and lute music.

Am 10.08.2018 um 16:53 schrieb Dan Winheld:
Alright, I give up. Tristan- what exactly do you want? Attention? You got that. Universal love & agreement? Wrong planet, (or universe). Honorary Doctorate of the Raga-Mezzo Mashup phenomenon? Don't apply to a lute list!

It's been an interesting (at times), but finally a tiresome ride you've taken us on. Discussion went way, way beyond my own simple understanding- not just of Indian music theory, but European as well. (I am a mere "pulsatore" of lute-shaped objects). But, I have done 12-bar blues/Passamezzo Antico mashups on my own. Generally much later in the evening, with imbibable assists from single malt Scottish mash-ups. -And NONE of the lute-lists damn business!

Dan W.

On 8/10/2018 7:02 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments, instead those from the eristics bin?

So, officially I ask the list:
Does anyone of you support anything I say?
There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are playing the tracks.
Don't be afraid to speak up.
It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is not a scientific magazine.

Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:
    Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
    spam.  He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to
    put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard evidence     rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether the
    whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..............
    So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the
    thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like you and
    Jurgen Frenz.  I too see no reason to change my final comment to
    Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
    Martyn Hodgson

      2 Apr at 12:10 PM

    To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net
    Thank you for this.  As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
    because there
    appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms
    have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi
    others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
    It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
    properly developed
    paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
    seeking to have
    it published? - and when will it appear?
    Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
    logic employed
    in any recognised objective  analysis: - correlation does not imply
    causation.  A
    mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will
    also be aware,
    a questionable cause logical fallacy.   No doubt you will, therefore,
    address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper.
    Martyn Hodgson

    From: Ido Shdaimah <>
    To: lutelist Net <>
    Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
    Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
      Dear Tristan,
      The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
      In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact
      points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras.
      maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of
      them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each
      Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate
      in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
      Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the
      mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
      I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags
      and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
      probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory
      You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep
      musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE
      direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting here       that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of them.
      This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep
      knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger contact.
      Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge
      acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious about
      Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to
      it down and  clearly compare structures from Western pieces to Raags,       using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras, Raags,
      Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are
      is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou heard       without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling that
      body else seems to hear what you hear.
      P. S.
      Are my messages coming out indented correctly?
      On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann
      <[1][3]> wrote:
        Dear Jurgen,
        do you consider this an illusion too?

        How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and where
        lute goes into cadence.
        How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a regal
        in this context?
        You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music, *not
        In a world that is constantly in need of music because there were
        mobile phones or even recordings?...
        This I only found because I believe that the influence is true.
        If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved anything
        because I would not have tried.
        Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
        > Dear Jurgen,
        > I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history of the
        > discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent.
        > Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have
        > brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading goods,
        > return to India later and tell about what would be available for
        > kings and their populace.
        > Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of
        people and
        > culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission).
        > The first German expedition to India by the houses of Fugger etc.         > together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took place
        > already in 1505/06.
        > There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in
        > Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th
        > What exactly is your argument against musical transfer?
        > Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
        >> Dear Tristan,
        >> in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the
        >> illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first Europeans
        to be
        >> in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the
        >> starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices (clove to
        >> with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and categorically
        >> to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540
        fantasia by
        >> Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's
        >> one just would need to listen carefully enough.'
        >> I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I
        >> refuse to believe the impossible.
        >> Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a
        period of
        >> that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere.
        >> Best regards and respectfully
        >> Jurgen
        >> ----------------------------------
        >> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
        >> JalÃl ad-DÃ «n Muhammad Rumi
        >> âââââââ Original Message âââââââ
        >> On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann
        >> <[3][5]> wrote:
        >>> Dear JÃ ¼rgen,
        >>> posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does not in
        >>> touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does
        enable you
        >>> to apply it to everything you disagree with.
        >>> If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on the
        >>> itself, otherwise it is not helpful.
        >>> It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories have no
        >>> to every claim that disagrees with reported events, regardless
        of the
        >>> validity of the claim.
        >>> Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also throw
        >>> commonly done things into the bin:
        >>> The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same thing.
        >>> soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with motifs
        from a
        >>> chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted,
        do you
        >>> deny any connection with Indian music?
        >>>  From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and
        >>> of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as
        >>> framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model example of
        >>> similarity, and the book is even organized to display these
        >>> similarities.
        >>> The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the
        >>> of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a concept
        >>> Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are hallmarks
        >>> different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of scale.
        >>> This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because
        >>> organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish enough
        >>> properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often
        >>> The difference between up and down scale is to my knowledge not
        >>> recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the
        >>> concept of mode.
        >>>  From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to cite
        from Lisa
        >>> Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already found
        what I was
        >>> looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of early
        >>> reception of Indian music.
        >>> So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is least
        >>> together, why not do something productive like play Fantasies
        >>> tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like?
        >>> The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together
        >>> The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance"
        >>> Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by side,
        though not
        >>> simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone does
        live what
        >>> I do in the mashups.
        >>> Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll post
        >>> link then.


        >>> Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
        >>>> For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment how
        >>>> claims, repeated over and over again, become accepted by some         >>>> individuals. Tristan, I see your attempts to convince people
        >>>> precisely in this line of practice.
        >>>> To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki
        >>>> [5][7]
        >>>> Enjoy reading
        >>>> Jurgen
        >>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
        >>>> JalÃl ad-DÃ «n Muhammad Rumi
        >>>> âââââââ Original Message âââââââ
        >>>> On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann
        >>>> [6][8] wrote:
        >>>>> This version is even better.
        >>>>> Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the Donne di
        >>>>> Ferrara or
        >>>>> similar groups...

        >>>>> Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
        >>>>>> Dear Lutists,
        >>>>>> Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet
        >>>>>> unification as
        >>>>>> Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the Francesco
        >>>>>> background.

        >>>>>> Sorry for the not so beautiful playing, it's quite heavy for
        me to
        >>>>>> concentrate on the groove while playing right.
        >>>>>> But I hope to prove a point - that is that the criteria of
        >>>>>> in the
        >>>>>> Siena Ms. seem to be conciously implying that modes also
        >>>>>> certain
        >>>>>> overarching structure that must be followed, hence the great
        >>>>>> similarity
        >>>>>> in many of the fantasies of the same mode.
        >>>>>> Maybe a better lutist than yours truly can do a better mix -
        >>>>>> Raga is
        >>>>>> to be found on youtube and can be used as a playback.
        >>>>>> I did not change the pitch, so this should work with a G
        >>>>>> Also other places to insert this or similar fantasies may
        appear when
        >>>>>> trying something.
        >>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
      1. mailto:[12]
      3. mailto:[14]
      5. [16]
      6. mailto:[17]
      9. [20]



   18.    19.

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