Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as
spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to
put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard
rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether
whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof..............
So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the
thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like
Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to
Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will
2 Apr at 12:10 PM
To Tristan von Neumann lutelist Net
Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that,
appears to be some similarities, various European early musical
have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by
others) from existing music found on the subcontinent.
It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and
paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you
seeking to have
it published? - and when will it appear?
Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal
in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply
mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will
also be aware,
a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will,
address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper.
From: Ido Shdaimah <ishdai...@gmail.com>
To: lutelist Net <email@example.com>
Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re:
Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music:
In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on
points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras.
maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of
them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used
Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate
in that natural environment of Indian Classical music.
Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India
mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play.
I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if
and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would
probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory
You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a
musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE
direct contact between the two cultures. You aren't suggesting
that one composer used IC theory in his composition, but ALL of
This would mean every single composer would have had to have deep
knowledge of IC music, and that would require a much bigger
Even these days with the ease of communication and knowledge
acquisition, most classical composers are generally oblivious
Finally, if you really want your hypothesis evaluated you have to
it down and clearly compare structures from Western pieces to
using both Western and IC theory terminology (Shrutis, Swaras,
Chalan, Tala, all that from the IC side). Right now what you are
is creating a mesh up then expecting everybody to hear what tou
without providing any vigorous explanation. Maybe it's telling
body else seems to hear what you hear.
Are my messages coming out indented correctly?
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:40 Tristan von Neumann
do you consider this an illusion too?
How do you explain this? Listen to the *tonal* percussion and
lute goes into cadence.
How do you explain that the harmonium basically acts like a
in this context?
You can have spices, cloth and slaves from India, but music,
In a world that is constantly in need of music because there
mobile phones or even recordings?...
This I only found because I believe that the influence is true.
If I were a skeptic like you, I would never have achieved
because I would not have tried.
Am 09.08.2018 um 20:32 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
> Dear Jurgen,
> I am afraid you are ill advised in regards to the history
> discovery and exploration of the Indian subcontinent.
> Already with the first voyage of Vasco to India, Indians have
> brought to Europe to have a look at the Portuguese trading
> return to India later and tell about what would be
> kings and their populace.
> Numerous detailed expeditions accounted for the discovery of
> culture of India already in the 16th century (Jesuit Mission).
> The first German expedition to India by the houses of
> together with Italian Merchants of the famous families took
> already in 1505/06.
> There are already many elements of Indian architecture used in
> Portuguese Manuelism architecture in the beginning of the 16th
> What exactly is your argument against musical transfer?
> Am 09.08.2018 um 19:08 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
>> Dear Tristan,
>> in all respect I strongly believe you're a victim of the
>> illusory truth effect. History tells us that the first
>> in direct contact with the Indian subcontinent were the
>> starting a trading post in Calcutta in 1505 for spices
>> with). The British followed in 1605. I simply and
>> to spend time on thinking of an Indian influence in a 1540
>> Milano, regardless of how many times you repeat that 'it's
>> one just would need to listen carefully enough.'
>> I do not belittle or question the honesty of your research, I
>> refuse to believe the impossible.
>> Please let us not continue exchanging arguments, there was a
>> that a few months ago and it didn't lead anywhere.
>> Best regards and respectfully
>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>> JalÃl ad-DÃ «n Muhammad Rumi
>> Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢ Original Message Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢
>> On 9 August 2018 9:26 PM, Tristan von Neumann
>> <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>>> Dear JÃ ¼rgen,
>>> posting an article about the Illusory Truth Effect does
>>> touch my findings, as the mere existence of such effect does
>>> to apply it to everything you disagree with.
>>> If you disagree, you are welcome to discuss the claims on
>>> itself, otherwise it is not helpful.
>>> It's like applying the phrase "Most conspiracy theories
>>> to every claim that disagrees with reported events,
>>> validity of the claim.
>>> Anyway, if my findings were null and void, you could also
>>> commonly done things into the bin:
>>> The search for "vocal models of fantasias" is the same
>>> soggetto and subsequent similar harmonic structure with
>>> chanson make the Fantasy based on that chanson are accepted,
>>> deny any connection with Indian music?
>>> From my point of view, the similarity of many ricercars and
>>> of the 16th century stem from the common Raga models used as
>>> framework of a composition. The Siena Ms. is a model
>>> similarity, and the book is even organized to display these
>>> The unclear concept of "mode" in the 16th century with the
>>> of cadence points etc. makes sense if mode is used as a
>>> Raga. Different cadence points in the same scale are
>>> different Ragas. European theorists thought in terms of
>>> This is also a problem in modern Indian musicology, because
>>> organized the music in 10 scales that don't distinguish
>>> properties of Ragas because up and down scales are often
>>> The difference between up and down scale is to my
>>> recognized enough by European theorists either, hence the
>>> concept of mode.
>>> From a historical standpoint, I am waiting to be able to
>>> Herrmann-Fertig's upcoming dissertation, as she already
what I was
>>> looking for - historical musical transfers and proof of
>>> reception of Indian music.
>>> So please Jurgen, if you already recognize that this is
>>> together, why not do something productive like play
>>> tempo, or even to Ragas to see what it's like?
>>> The whole idea is to find ways to play this music together
>>> The York festival recently had a "Dhrupad - Renaissance"
>>> Indian music and Renaissance Music were played side by side,
>>> simultaneously. It's only a matter of time until someone
>>> I do in the mashups.
>>> Said concert will be broadcast in September on BBC, I'll
>>> link then.
>>> Am 09.08.2018 um 07:11 schrieb Jurgen Frenz:
>>>> For what it's worth, here is a reminder of an experiment
>>>> claims, repeated over and over again, become accepted by
>>>> individuals. Tristan, I see your attempts to convince
>>>> precisely in this line of practice.
>>>> To simply your google research, here's a link to a wiki
>>>> Enjoy reading
>>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>>>> JalÃl ad-DÃ «n Muhammad Rumi
>>>> Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢ Original Message Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢
>>>> On 9 August 2018 2:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann
>>>> tristanvonneum...@gmx.de wrote:
>>>>> This version is even better.
>>>>> Imagine this is the late 16th century singing by the
>>>>> Ferrara or
>>>>> similar groups...
>>>>> Am 08.08.2018 um 19:22 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
>>>>>> Dear Lutists,
>>>>>> Francesco and Ganassi fans will rejoice over this sweet
>>>>>> unification as
>>>>>> Ronu Majumdar plays quite some improv "over" the
>>>>>> Sorry for the not so beautiful playing, it's quite
>>>>>> concentrate on the groove while playing right.
>>>>>> But I hope to prove a point - that is that the
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> Siena Ms. seem to be conciously implying that modes also
>>>>>> overarching structure that must be followed, hence the
>>>>>> in many of the fantasies of the same mode.
>>>>>> Maybe a better lutist than yours truly can do a better
>>>>>> Raga is
>>>>>> to be found on youtube and can be used as a playback.
>>>>>> I did not change the pitch, so this should work with a G
>>>>>> Also other places to insert this or similar fantasies may
>>>>>> trying something.
>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at