On Monday, 3 October 2016 12:46:06 AM AEDT Craig Sanders via luv-main wrote: > [edited to put the interesting stuff at the top, and the boring stuff > at the bottom where it's easily ignored.]
Good idea. > On Sat, Oct 01, 2016 at 08:05:31PM +1000, russ...@coker.com.au wrote: > > Bash is still quite a bit bigger than busybox and links with a couple > > of libraries that busybox doesn't link with. Systems which run > > busybox typically run a smaller shell than bash. > > yes, but bash does a lot more, and is the lot nicer to use interactively. True. But for most of the situations where tools like busybox are typically used that isn't much of an issue. Lack of usable find and du commands on Android devices is quite annoying for me, but lack of a good shell isn't such a big deal. While I'm in the small minority of Android users who actually use a shell on an Android device, I'm not in the even tinier minority who use it enough to want a good shell. > the difference between 600K and 1.2MB (or even 2MB or 3MB if a good subset > of GNU tar and other GNU tools - the rest of coreutils and find, to start > with, maybe sed and awk too) can be made loadable) is minimal, even on small > embedded systems these days, most have GBs of storage at least, and > hundreds of MB or even a few GB of RAM.. https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/kogan-agora-6/ The most common varient of "embedded" Linux IMHO is Android phones. The cheapest Android phone that Kogan has in stock right now costs $179, has 16G of storage, and 2G of RAM. That compares well to desktop PCs in 2003. https://www.aldimobile.com.au/plans/xlvaluepack/ I just upgraded my Nexus 6P to Android 7, it was about 1G to download. So a few extra meg isn't going to make a lot of difference to that. Also 3G/4G plans are getting pretty cheap nowadays. I'm currently using the AldiMobile "XL" pack that costs $35 per 30 days for 6G of data. I chose that because sticking within a 2G limit was too difficult and it doesn't cost much. I could download a new Android image over 3G and not exceed my monthly quota. > > The majority of Debian users don't care much which init system is in > > use. > > the majority had no say in it, and probably aren't capable of switching > to something else if systemd doesn't meet their needs. The majority have no say in any Debian decisions apart from moving to Ubuntu or something if they don't like what Debian is doing. > > > as predicted (but dismissed as needless paranoia at the time), other > > > init systems ARE being deprecated and a few DDs (not many yet, but > > > i don't expect that to last forever) are deliberately dropping > > > sysvinit (etc) support and ignoring or rejecting patches to add such > > > support. > > > > That's what happens when you have a war about something. A lot of the > > energy that could be devoted to supporting other init systems is spent > > on the war > > so it's OK to break promises because some (other) people said some mean > things somewhere along the line? > > right. > > i think what actually happened is that they knowingly lied just to get their > preferred option approved, and actually had no intention of enabling or > even allowing continued support of anything except systemd. I don't think so. I originally planned to help with such things. But all the flame-wars just drained my energy. Every time I think about such work I end up just playing Warzone 2100 instead. As an aside I helped get the latest version of Warzone 2100 into Unstable, it has some nice new features, if you like RTS games then check it out. > > and now everyone wants to just forget it. > > actively discriminating against other inits is not "forgetting it" > > it's fair enough to not make any personal effort to support something > you don't use or are not interested in...it's quite another to reject > out of hand someone else's contribution to add that support. > > and "avoiding arseholes" is not a valid excuse - the areseholes aren't > the ones submitting patches or otherwise doing useful work. in fact, > deliberately rejecting such patches is likely to piss off some of those > arseholes, so it fails even at that. I don't think that there are many people rejecting patches. Anyway you can of course send patches, NMU packages, create private repositories, etc. > > But you have the option to patch things and to run your own repository of > > patched packages if some DDs don't accept your patches. > > that, to put it extremely mildly, is very far from optimal or even > reasonable. > > Debian is a Universal Operating System. It's not just for those who like > particular packages or the most popular packages and "up yours" to everyone > else - that attitude, more than anything else, is why I am still resisting > the move to systemd. > > i've encountered the attitude before, e.g. with djb-ware, and my warnings > about the dead-end nature of qmail back then proved to be exactly right. Qmail wasn't a problem. It worked nicely for what it aimed to do and used the Maildir standard (which was new at the time) which allowed for an easy upgrade path to Postfix. > systemd presents exactly the same kind of one-way conversion danger, once > you've switched it will be extremely difficult to switch to anything else It wasn't difficult to switch away from Qmail for most email setups. The systems that were difficult to switch were the more complicated ones that would be difficult no matter what you did. I don't think that init.d scripts are going to go away. If a decision is made to go back to them they can be retrieved from old repositories and used again. > > The people like you aren't on "the opposite side". > > loons you have to ignore. anything else just ensures you stay on their > radar, and then you'll keep wondering why they keep targetting you. > > there's really no point in engaging them in any way. That's not my experience. I wrote a blog post about technical issues related to systemd and got a bunch of nasty comments that I refused to approve. I wrote a blog post about the horrible people who write such comments and got comments discussing the issues in reasonable manner. It seems that when I made it clear that sending me abuse isn't going to get a good result they decided not to send such abuse. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ _______________________________________________ luv-main mailing list luv-main@luv.asn.au https://lists.luv.asn.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/luv-main
