I think your dead on.  I think there are different mind sets as well.  I think 
some who may be more technical or more of an engineering mindset like Android.  
The openness, the way things are done etc.  Where others just want to use the 
phone not get under the hood.  That’s an interesting contrast Donna that I have 
seen as well.
 

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Donna Goodin <doniado...@me.com> wrote:
> 
> You know, that's interesting.  I've had a similar experience watching my 
> parents with iPads and iPhones, but what's funny is that my dad, who was a 
> programmer back in the days of punch cards and computers that took up an 
> entire large room, has found the iPhone difficult to get used to, whereas my 
> mom, who will tell anyone who wants to know that technology hates her, has 
> taken to the iPad very easily.  I think my mom's lack of prior computer 
> experience actually helped her, because she didn't have a bunch of 
> preconceived notions about how things are "supposed to" work.
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:02 AM, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net 
>> <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> You know you make a really interesting point.  Thinking back on it, I went 
>> from a PPC-6850 to an iPod.  I remember breaking that guy out of the box and 
>> just sort of nudeling around with it for a few minutes and I’d say with in 
>> an hour I was comfortable with the very basics.  I remember taking a long 
>> time to work up to the app store and using apps because I was surprised they 
>> would be accessible having no such luck on the power PC.  The thing I’ve 
>> noticed with sited and blind alike is with an Apple device you can pick it 
>> up even with out initial training and there’s parts of it that just make 
>> sense and click.  My father’s a great example of this.  I handed him an iPad 
>> and had to admonish him twice on the ride home to stop playing with his iPad 
>> and driving at the same time.:) With in a week he new more hand gestures 
>> than I did and he never looked back.  Impressive to see but that’s been a 
>> big push from Apple back to the days of the Lisa.  Anyone remember Steve 
>> Job’s daughter’s experience with paint on the Mac?  I think intuitive use 
>> has been a thrust of apple since after the switch from the Apple 2 to the 
>> graphical devices.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Donna Goodin <doniado...@me.com 
>>> <mailto:doniado...@me.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny 
>>> to think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and 
>>> I would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet 
>>> now it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
>>> 
>>> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
>>> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
>>> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
>>> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
>>> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be 
>>> intuitive, but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that 
>>> I haven't upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net 
>>>> <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive 
>>>> but let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple 
>>>> products.  I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile 
>>>> speak days on Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time 
>>>> that was highly life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally 
>>>> changed my professional life for example being able to text with my 
>>>> coworkers and receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here 
>>>> a random meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>>>>    In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
>>>> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
>>>> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
>>>> game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout 
>>>> that was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from 
>>>> yours only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code 
>>>> factory to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe 
>>>> mainstream isn’t the best way to express it.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten <motte...@gmail.com 
>>>>> <mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
>>>>> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now 
>>>>> you and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. 
>>>>> What if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
>>>>> efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less 
>>>>> intuitive than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily 
>>>>> less intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the 
>>>>> documentation to let us know about this stuff when they release the final 
>>>>> OS. Fiddling around is for beta testers. When you release a final product 
>>>>> which is supposed to be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross 
>>>>> the tease, and let us know how it is different in terms of our particular 
>>>>> accessibility needs. That goes with the territory of universal design. I 
>>>>> know reading is out of fashion out with specially with the younger 
>>>>> generation. But a little bit of documentation goes a long way.
>>>>>  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
>>>>> dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
>>>>> Mary
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com 
>>>>> <mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>>>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>>>>> system, namely OS.
>>>>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The 
>>>>>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted. 
>>>>>>  Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>>>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going 
>>>>>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This 
>>>>>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, 
>>>>>> to make simpler, to add features.
>>>>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>>>>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful 
>>>>>> or easily usable.
>>>>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on 
>>>>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the 
>>>>>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place 
>>>>>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other 
>>>>>> way round.
>>>>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements. 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
>>>>>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
>>>>>> good.
>>>>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk 
>>>>>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now 
>>>>>>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled 
>>>>>>> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a 
>>>>>>> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this 
>>>>>>> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the 
>>>>>>> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific 
>>>>>>> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen 
>>>>>>> deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick 
>>>>>>> moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not 
>>>>>>> belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same as 
>>>>>>> single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread 
>>>>>>> must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger 
>>>>>>> vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is 
>>>>>>> unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like non-thread 
>>>>>>> messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I really like 
>>>>>>> it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used to this new 
>>>>>>> system.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for 
>>>>>>> iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love 
>>>>>>> touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton <philh...@gmail.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:philh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can 
>>>>>>>> no longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead 
>>>>>>>> I have to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of 
>>>>>>>> messages in a thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into 
>>>>>>>> the first message in the thread and then have to navigate between 
>>>>>>>> messages using the next and pre message buttons. What a screw up this 
>>>>>>>> is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message gone in ios10?
>>>>>>>> Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there 
>>>>>>>> some settings that need tweaking?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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