Thanks ET.

Appreciate that.

Will read this over as soon as I can.

Have a great day!

Cheers!

Cara

---
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On Aug 10, 2017, at 2:59 PM, E.T. <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:

  Apple's public beta NDA agreement at the following link...

<https://beta.apple.com/sp/betaprogram/legal>

>From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
 "God for you is where you sweep away all the
 mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
 our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
 and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/10/2017 1:27 PM, Cara Quinn wrote:
> Hi Scott,
> 
> First off, I have not seen every post from Mark. I  can assure you though 
> that if he has inadvertently posted anything that was under beta, it was an 
> accident.
> 
> I’ve spoken with him and I trust him implicitly otherwise he would not be 
> moderating this list.
> 
> My understanding is that anything that has been posted here is not under NDA 
> so can be freely discussed.
> 
> If either I or Mark are wrong then please, by all means, point us to the post 
> in question. I am just asking that you do it off-list so we close this thread.
> 
> As far as your calling hypocrisy, though, and saying you can know my thoughts 
> / feelings with the limited knowledge you have of me, I will ask you simply, 
> what on earth have I done or said to you that basically makes you respond in 
> essence by either calling me a lier or a hypocrite every time I write 
> something in response to you, no matter how honest or matter-or-fact it is?
> 
> Scott, put simply, if you do not trust me or Mark, to the extent that you 
> feel that every time we respond to you, we are somehow not being honest then 
> why the hell are you still here? -And before you go shouting about this list 
> being some sort of power trip for me or Mark, if that were the case then one 
> of us would have simply removed you a long time ago.
> 
> We obviously haven’t. I was completely honest and straight-forward in my 
> response to you and I am honestly getting really tired of the same old 
> vitriol and pour-me stuff from your side.
> 
> there’s a lot that you say that I agree with and I think you have a whole lot 
> of knowledge and wisdom that you can and do share with this list.
> 
> So why the hell do you keep playing the whole downtrodden card?
> 
> You’re not downtrodden by any of the moderation. You say a lot of great 
> things here.
> 
> Just because I may not agree with every single thing you say does not mean I 
> do not respect you.
> 
> Whether or not you respect me on the other hand is your business.
> 
> I do wish you would stop the pettiness in your responses to me though. I 
> approached you with only honesty and plain english. -no name-calling or 
> sleights.
> 
> If you don’t respect me personally; fine, but please, if you honestly feel 
> that Mark and I in general, are being somehow underhanded with you, then 
> please just consider going elsewhere. I’m simply tired of your attitude no 
> matter how nice or respectful I attempt to be with you.
> 
> This is not a demand, this is simply a request because I have just simply had 
> enough of the BS.
> 
> So now, how much more honest would you like me to be?
> 
> Mark’s intentions have always been to be appropriate here on this list and he 
> holds himself very strongly to the same standards that he asks of anyone. I 
> have known him for many years and he exhibits tremendous character. So if he 
> has ever posted anything inappropriate you can be sure it was purely 
> accidental.
> 
> -And this is exactly what I am talking about. You should really get to know 
> someone before you speak out of turn about someone.
> 
> I know we all say things at times that are off, but rather than doubling down 
> on this sort of thing, why not actually attempt to listen to someone rather 
> than assume what you think they feel?
> 
> Anyway, my apologies for such a long note. Thanks for reading.
> 
> Consider it if you like; delete it if you want. -Either way is fine with me 
> at this point.
> 
> I wish you the best Scott, and have a great day.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> 
> ---
> iOS design and development - LookTel.com
> ---
> View my Online Portfolio at:
> 
> http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn
> 
> Follow me on Twitter!
> 
> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
> 
> On Aug 10, 2017, at 11:53 AM, Scott Granados <scott.grana...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes it really is.  When mark posts tens of articles on IOS 11 which is still 
> in beta yet complains when Anders asks a legitimate question that impacts our 
> community there is something clearly wrong.  I don’t need to know you 
> personally to know your personal feelings, remember the phrase actions speak 
> louder than words.  The hypocrisy in this case speaks volumes.  It’s a total 
> case of do as I say not as I do.
> 
> When dozens of sites post articles daily, some of which Mark himself has 
> quoted on list about IOS betas and then pulls that crap with Anders it’s 
> confusing at best and bad form.
>       No, I do not know you personally and no I don’t know Mark personally 
> although I’ve talked to him a bit on list and so forth a bit more and have 
> followed his postings since the mobile speak days but this sort of thing 
> gives a bad impression.  I’ll withdraw the personal feelings aspect of the 
> criticism if you feel it’s inaccurate but the general thrust still stands and 
> also to be accurate, this is the first time in probably a year I’ve heard you 
> comment on moderation so my point was mainly directed at Mark as you hadn’t 
> joined the thread.
>       I talked to Anders about this on the side.  We were both under the 
> impression that the prohibition against public beta discussion had been 
> lifted a long time ago again do to Mark’s posting of these topics as well as 
> my own, Kliph’s and many others that went unchallenged for a year now.  As I 
> stated, it’s your list so by extension sort of your house and I'll comply 
> because we’re guests in your domain but that doesn’t make it right, 
> reasonable or justifiable.
>       I most definitely did not mean to personally attack you or Mark so any 
> thoughts around personal feelings or characteristics I’ll gladly withdraw but 
> as far as professionalism goes and the business of running the list Mark’s 
> stifling of Anders point was unacceptable but unacceptable is the way it will 
> be if you, mark and the other mods if they exist say so.
> 
> So, no discussion of betas unless the mods post articles on the betas because 
> it’s do as I say not as I do.  Got it!
> 
> Very confusing and inconsistent
> 
>> On Aug 10, 2017, at 1:29 PM, Cara Quinn <caraqu...@caraquinn.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Scott,
>> 
>> Why are you saying this policy has to do with personal feelings when you 
>> have not taken any time at all to get to know either me or Mark? You have no 
>> idea what our personal feelings are on this.
>> 
>> -Okay, to be fair, perhaps you have gotten to know Mark unbeknownst to me, 
>> but I know you and I don’t really know each other. :)
>> 
>> So please don’t stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot. This 
>> isn’t about our personal feelings.
>> 
>> Anyway, for the record, I really couldn’t care less if we discuss beta 
>> material or not, providing that public discussion is permitted in the user 
>> agreement provided along with the software for the public beta program. 
>> -And, for what it’s worth, I agree with you that as blind customers, we 
>> really need to make our voices heard on issues that are important to us. I 
>> just don’t believe that we should be breaking agreements to do it unless 
>> that is absolutely our *only* available option.
>> 
>> Since I am not a member of the public beta program, if someone would like to 
>> post the agreement here or point me to it, I’ll be happy to take a look.
>> 
>> If it says we can discuss it then we’ll simply change the policy. No biggie.
>> 
>> This is not some big personal thing, this is just a matter of a simple user 
>> agreement. That’s all.
>> 
>> Cheers!
>> 
>> Cara
>> 
>> ---
>> iOS design and development - LookTel.com
>> ---
>> View my Online Portfolio at:
>> 
>> http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn
>> 
>> Follow me on Twitter!
>> 
>> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
>> 
>> On Aug 10, 2017, at 8:24 AM, Scott Granados <scott.grana...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Why join a list when the rules are based in some arbitrary feeling that is 
>> based on personal feelings rather than the law?
>> 
>> That’s just silly.
>> 
>> Counter to you, on any list I run feel free to discuss public anything as 
>> much as you like.  Public betas to public flogging, doesn’t matter to me.  
>> Nor does it matter to Apple, their legal teams or any boiler plate.
>> 
>> It’s fine if Mark wants no discussion on a topic but don’t represent 
>> something that’s not true, it’s a personal decision not one based on 
>> anything legal or even best practices.  Public anything is open for 
>> discussion.  Developer betas are a different matter and nobody crossed that 
>> line.
>> 
>> Sometimes it’ really hurts.
>> 
>> On Aug 10, 2017, at 9:33 AM, christopher hallsworth 
>> <challswor...@icloud.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am, and will still stand by mine and the group management thoughts on 
>>> this. Questions about either Developer or public betas should not be 
>>> allowed, in my opinion. Nough said. I do not allow such discussion on my 
>>> own general technology list, which, btw you are more than welcome to join. 
>>> Please ask off list so as to avoid clutter. Cheers!
>>>> On 10 Aug 2017, at 13:55, Ray Foret jr <rforet7...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Not even public beta questions.  Why?  Simple.  It’s still beta and 
>>>> therefore, falls under Apple’s non disclosure agreement.
>>>> Sent from my Mac, The Only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
>>>> built-in
>>>> 
>>>> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray,
>>>> 
>>>> Still a very happy Comcast XFinity Voice Guidance, Mac, Verizon Wireless 
>>>> iPhone7+ and Apple TV user!
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 10, 2017, at 7:25 AM, Anders Holmberg <and...@pipkrokodil.se> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi mark!
>>>>> I am sorry for that one.
>>>>> Not even public beta questions?
>>>>> If not then i am very sorry to ask this here.
>>>>> /A
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 10 aug. 2017 kl. 05:57 skrev M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu>:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello Anders,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Beta software questions are not for this list.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you have beta software questions, you may request that list members 
>>>>>> contact you, off-list.  Please be sure to include your direct email 
>>>>>> address in the body of the post.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anders Holmberg
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 8:41 PM
>>>>>> To: 'Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries
>>>>>> Subject: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>> For you who are testing the latest Ios 11 Public Beta i have a question 
>>>>>> for you.
>>>>>> If you’re using airplay, does VoiceOver follow the airplay audio so that 
>>>>>> it comes through the airplay system instead of the Iphone speaker?
>>>>>> I have this problem and can’t even use the audio routing feature so that 
>>>>>> voiceover will stay on the iphone.
>>>>>> I have reported this to apple.
>>>>>> I have another problem where in controlcenter i cant select any airport 
>>>>>> device which was possible in ios 10.
>>>>>> /A
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>>>> Visionaries list.
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>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> --
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>>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
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>>>> 
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>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
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>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
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>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
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>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
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>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
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> 

-- 
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list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
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