Garth, I would have to argue about shortcut keys as far as Word is concerned-in fact the entire Office Suite. I have to use such in a VM at work and since we switched to Office 2007, most shortcut keys appear to no longer be available. In addition, I think you will find there are a good number of shortcut keys in apps such as Word as well. I do not have a list in front of me, but things such as command-i to toggle italics, command-u underline, and so forth. True there is no context key as there is in Windows, but it's such a trivial thing for me to hit VO-shift-m, I just don't think about it. I also believe it depends on your comfort level, which goes back to the entire point of the thread. THe one thing I believe we will agree on is the fact that we can disagree. :)
On Nov 26, 2011, at 3:24 AM, Garth Humphreys wrote: > Hi Ricardo and Scott > > Sorry this is just an impression I have. I will explain a little further > what I mean, and let me also say that I acknowledge that as a new mac user I > probably don't really know what I am talking about. > > It is things like bringing up a context menu. There is obviously the 4 finger > VO way to do this. Is there any keyboard only way of doing this other then > the VO one? Under windows there is a specific key for this as well as at > least one other 2 finger keyboard shortcut. > > I get the impression that a lot of the UI in OSX is designed to be interacted > with by using a mouse or now the track pad primarily. This is obviously the > same with windows but in windows I think that you would be more likely to be > able to find a keystroke which would accomplish the task you wanted. VO seems > to have to overcome the lack of a native keyboard shortcut and it often seems > that there are a lot of steps that are needed to get the job done. Not to > mention the number of keys that make up some of the shortcuts. > > There has been a strong history of supporting keyboard shortcuts under > windows. I read recently somewhere, possibly in the Steve Jobs biography, > that at one time he wanted to get rid of arrow keys on his keyboards > altogether. > > I think Pages is probably a lot more efficient to use if you are able to see > and can use the mouse. Under word you can achieve heaps with simple keyboard > shortcuts. > > Anyway as I said these are just the impressions of a new mac user. > > Garth > > > > On 25/11/2011, at 9:00 PM, Scott Howell wrote: > >> I concur Recardo and I also would like some examples as well. I have been >> using the Mac since 2005 and I have never felt as though keyboard commands >> are an afterthought. >> >> On Nov 24, 2011, at 10:10 PM, Ricardo Walker wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I completely disagree that Mac OSX keystrokes feel like add ons or after >>> thoughts in comparison to Windows. I would appreciate if you can give some >>> examples of this. >>> Ricardo Walker >>> rwalker...@gmail.com >>> Twitter & Skype: rwalker296 >>> www.mobileaccess.org >>> >>> On Nov 24, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Garth Humphreys wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Missy >>>> >>>> I think one the reasons your not getting that comfortable with the word >>>> processing options on the Mac is that they actually aren't that great >>>> compared to MS Word. This goes beyond just that we are use to using Word. >>>> >>>> Keystrokes on the Mac seem to be much more of an add on or after thought >>>> then they are in windows. I don't mean this just from the perspective of a >>>> blind user, but in general without any reference to screen readers. >>>> >>>> I don't want to sound like I am bashing the Mac, I actually really like >>>> using it. I just want to be realistic about the limitations as well. >>>> Especially given that potential new users watch this list in the same way >>>> that I did before buying my MBA. >>>> >>>> Garth >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24/11/2011, at 11:50 PM, Missy Hoppe wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree. I'm very comfortable with basic finder commands in particular; >>>>> have caught myself trying to use them on the PC >>>>> recently. Even the mail commands are fairly intuitive once you memorize >>>>> them, which usually isn't a problem for me. I just >>>>> can't get genuinely comfortable with any of the word processing options >>>>> for the mac, and there are a lot of instances where >>>>> things just seem more complicated than they have to be: for example, I >>>>> don't always know when interracting is mandatory, and >>>>> I've heard some instructions on this list that just seem way too complex >>>>> considering the task trying to be accomplished. I >>>>> wish I could think of an example, but I do remember 1 thing I read >>>>> recently where there were 4-5 steps, including >>>>> interracting several times, and I just thought to myself that whatever >>>>> the task was isn't nearly so complicated to do under >>>>> windows. Still, I am to the point where I try to boot up the mac at least >>>>> a few times a week, but unless I can find a better >>>>> word processor, some audio games and/or a mud client that actually works, >>>>> I don't ever see myself abandoning the PC. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth Humphreys >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 8:41 AM >>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>> Subject: Re: Mac feel natural >>>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> I would agree with the general sentiment that you need to just use your >>>>> mac for a while. I have only had my Mac for a couple >>>>> of months but I have used it everyday. >>>>> >>>>> I feel relatively comfortable on the Mac. I wouldn't agree that you need >>>>> to stop using Windows completely. I have been using >>>>> Windows XP at work everyday as well and also I've been using Windows 7 >>>>> and Vista at home as well. >>>>> >>>>> I think the important thing is to use the Mac regularly. It is just >>>>> practice and to a degree muscle memory. There are >>>>> obviously lots of factors but one major component of feeling comfortable >>>>> is simply knowing what keystroke to press without >>>>> having to think about it. The simple fact is that the required keystroke >>>>> to achieve something on a Mac is likely to be more >>>>> complicated then it would be on a Windows machine. I don't mean that it >>>>> is necessarily less intuitive I just mean that it is >>>>> likely to involve more keys and so maybe harder to remember. >>>>> When it comes time for me to send this message for example I won't have >>>>> to think through what the key stroke is. I have used >>>>> the mac mail app enough that it is second nature to hit Cmd+Shift+D. >>>>> >>>>> In short, like others have said practise. If you have to put your Windows >>>>> machine out of reach for while to force yourself >>>>> then sure, why not. >>>>> >>>>> For me personally the thing I have loved most about using my mac is the >>>>> physical hardware it's self. The MBA is truly a >>>>> lovely machine. I like using Lion and VO but for somethings it is just no >>>>> replacement for an up-to-date windows machine. Word >>>>> with JAWS or even NVDA is far better then Pages and VO in my opinion. And >>>>> I would be really happy if I never had to hear busy >>>>> busy busy busy again. >>>>> >>>>> NVDA is becoming or should I say has become a first class screen reader >>>>> and it is free. >>>>> >>>>> I do love my Mac but Windows is also an excellent OS. >>>>> >>>>> Garth >>>>> >>>>> twitter.com/blindtechmusing >>>>> >>>>> , >>>>> On 24/11/2011, at 7:50 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> I have been using the Mac since 2008 and am never ever ever ever going >>>>>> to go back to windblows again. It took me a weekend >>>>> to set it up and once done, i left windblows behind and have never looked >>>>> back since. Ok, i've got a vm with XP and one with >>>>> 7 in it, just to see what i'm not missing. The only things i use >>>>> windblows for nowadays is playing audio games. Let's hope >>>>> there'll be mac versions of them too so i finally can ditch windblows >>>>> alltogether. >>>>>> I can only agree with what others have said here, use the mac as much as >>>>>> possible, especially when you learn it. That will >>>>> make the experience easier. >>>>>> /Krister >>>>>> >>>>>> 24 nov 2011 kl. 03:16 skrev Mary: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Traci, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the way I did it was to force myself to do everything I needed to do on >>>>>>> the Mac and stay away from Windows. No matter how >>>>> tempting it was, I didn't allow myself to use Windows at all While I was >>>>> learning to use the Mac. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 23, 2011, at 12:26 PM, Paul Mimms wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Most of us are more comfortable with what we have become familiar with >>>>>>>> using, therefore what is easier. You may find you >>>>> just need to stop making the decision whether to use the MacBook or the >>>>> PC and remove the PC from consideration. Make the >>>>> MacBook the only computer you use and make it work for you just as you >>>>> did with the PC at one time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/23/2011 10:19 AM, Traci wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What is your advice on making the Mac experience feel natural? I'm >>>>>>>>> loving my Macbook Air, but I'm noticing I don't >>>>> naturally go to it. I'm still using my ancient windows laptop most of >>>>> the time. It can be 3 or 4 days, and I think I really >>>>> should go on my Mac. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> :) I guess I want to get to the point, where it is odd to pick up the >>>>>>>>> windows laptop. Any good suggestions? How long >>>>> did it take you before the Mac felt second nature? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Traci >>>>>>>>> Sent by Macbook Air Mail >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Yes, the glass is half full, but I'm not finished filling it! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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