Hi, I would also have to disagree with the comments made with respect to keyboard commands being an after thought. In fact, many of the keyboard commands that Windows uses are more or less the same as the MacOS.
eg. Cut, Copy, Paste, Print, Open Save as well as commonly used style commands such as Bold, Italic and Underline all use the same keyboard letter. On Windows you simply use the control key whereas in the MacOS, you use the cmd key. There are numerous other commands that are so very close to each other that it is quite easy to move back and forth. I admit that there are many commands that are totally different and these, for the most part, are simply accomplished differently, not necessarily more or less difficultly. eg. On Windows, press Alt to quickly get to the menubar, in the MacOS, VO users can press VO-m or anybody, including VO users, can simply press control-f2. There are tons of keyboard alternatives on the Mac but I'd venture to say that most people don't know or realize that they exist. The concept of Interacting With items can in some cases slow down one process/activity but in most cases, speeds up navigation. The reason that one must Interact with something also means that one can quickly navigate past that entire group quickly without Interacting, if they do not wish to deal with the detail of its contents. The GUI for the MacOS was out about 10 years prior to the release of Windows 95 and I'd guess that MS based much of it's interface on the same concepts that Apple had already implemented. Since then, improvements have been made on both platforms and I'd also guess that some improvements on each, were built on concepts the other had already implemented. I'm certainly not an expert on Windows, as 99.5% of my computer use is on the Mac. The only things I use a PC for now is accessing the Active Directory on our Windows Server at work. I see it more as a different way of doing things, and being that us humans are creatures of habit, what we believe as more logical or intuitive, sometimes is primarily due to the way our brains have been trained Parents often find the new way that their kids do Math and such as totally confusing but their kids find our ways confusing. Parts of the world, like the UK, find it much more logical to drive on the right side of the car and on the left side of the road, very illogical and problematic to people in North America and other countries that do otherwise. I've belaboured this enough, so I'll stop. Have a great day. For my neighbours to the south, don't spend too much money on Black Friday deals. Later... On 2011-11-25, at 8:00 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: > Right, > > If one is comparing VO commands to those of screen readers on windows, I > might be able to see the other side of the equation. But, I think the Mac > OSX commands are well thought out, and are very versatile. Hey, they are > even customizable to a extent via keyboard shortcuts. > > Ricardo Walker > [email protected] > Twitter & Skype: rwalker296 > www.mobileaccess.org > > On Nov 25, 2011, at 6:00 AM, Scott Howell wrote: > >> I concur Recardo and I also would like some examples as well. I have been >> using the Mac since 2005 and I have never felt as though keyboard commands >> are an afterthought. >> >> On Nov 24, 2011, at 10:10 PM, Ricardo Walker wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I completely disagree that Mac OSX keystrokes feel like add ons or after >>> thoughts in comparison to Windows. I would appreciate if you can give some >>> examples of this. >>> Ricardo Walker >>> [email protected] >>> Twitter & Skype: rwalker296 >>> www.mobileaccess.org >>> >>> On Nov 24, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Garth Humphreys wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Missy >>>> >>>> I think one the reasons your not getting that comfortable with the word >>>> processing options on the Mac is that they actually aren't that great >>>> compared to MS Word. This goes beyond just that we are use to using Word. >>>> >>>> Keystrokes on the Mac seem to be much more of an add on or after thought >>>> then they are in windows. I don't mean this just from the perspective of a >>>> blind user, but in general without any reference to screen readers. >>>> >>>> I don't want to sound like I am bashing the Mac, I actually really like >>>> using it. I just want to be realistic about the limitations as well. >>>> Especially given that potential new users watch this list in the same way >>>> that I did before buying my MBA. >>>> >>>> Garth >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24/11/2011, at 11:50 PM, Missy Hoppe wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree. I'm very comfortable with basic finder commands in particular; >>>>> have caught myself trying to use them on the PC >>>>> recently. Even the mail commands are fairly intuitive once you memorize >>>>> them, which usually isn't a problem for me. I just >>>>> can't get genuinely comfortable with any of the word processing options >>>>> for the mac, and there are a lot of instances where >>>>> things just seem more complicated than they have to be: for example, I >>>>> don't always know when interracting is mandatory, and >>>>> I've heard some instructions on this list that just seem way too complex >>>>> considering the task trying to be accomplished. I >>>>> wish I could think of an example, but I do remember 1 thing I read >>>>> recently where there were 4-5 steps, including >>>>> interracting several times, and I just thought to myself that whatever >>>>> the task was isn't nearly so complicated to do under >>>>> windows. Still, I am to the point where I try to boot up the mac at least >>>>> a few times a week, but unless I can find a better >>>>> word processor, some audio games and/or a mud client that actually works, >>>>> I don't ever see myself abandoning the PC. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Garth Humphreys >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 8:41 AM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: Mac feel natural >>>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> I would agree with the general sentiment that you need to just use your >>>>> mac for a while. I have only had my Mac for a couple >>>>> of months but I have used it everyday. >>>>> >>>>> I feel relatively comfortable on the Mac. I wouldn't agree that you need >>>>> to stop using Windows completely. I have been using >>>>> Windows XP at work everyday as well and also I've been using Windows 7 >>>>> and Vista at home as well. >>>>> >>>>> I think the important thing is to use the Mac regularly. It is just >>>>> practice and to a degree muscle memory. There are >>>>> obviously lots of factors but one major component of feeling comfortable >>>>> is simply knowing what keystroke to press without >>>>> having to think about it. The simple fact is that the required keystroke >>>>> to achieve something on a Mac is likely to be more >>>>> complicated then it would be on a Windows machine. I don't mean that it >>>>> is necessarily less intuitive I just mean that it is >>>>> likely to involve more keys and so maybe harder to remember. >>>>> When it comes time for me to send this message for example I won't have >>>>> to think through what the key stroke is. I have used >>>>> the mac mail app enough that it is second nature to hit Cmd+Shift+D. >>>>> >>>>> In short, like others have said practise. If you have to put your Windows >>>>> machine out of reach for while to force yourself >>>>> then sure, why not. >>>>> >>>>> For me personally the thing I have loved most about using my mac is the >>>>> physical hardware it's self. The MBA is truly a >>>>> lovely machine. I like using Lion and VO but for somethings it is just no >>>>> replacement for an up-to-date windows machine. Word >>>>> with JAWS or even NVDA is far better then Pages and VO in my opinion. And >>>>> I would be really happy if I never had to hear busy >>>>> busy busy busy again. >>>>> >>>>> NVDA is becoming or should I say has become a first class screen reader >>>>> and it is free. >>>>> >>>>> I do love my Mac but Windows is also an excellent OS. >>>>> >>>>> Garth >>>>> >>>>> twitter.com/blindtechmusing >>>>> >>>>> , >>>>> On 24/11/2011, at 7:50 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> I have been using the Mac since 2008 and am never ever ever ever going >>>>>> to go back to windblows again. It took me a weekend >>>>> to set it up and once done, i left windblows behind and have never looked >>>>> back since. Ok, i've got a vm with XP and one with >>>>> 7 in it, just to see what i'm not missing. The only things i use >>>>> windblows for nowadays is playing audio games. Let's hope >>>>> there'll be mac versions of them too so i finally can ditch windblows >>>>> alltogether. >>>>>> I can only agree with what others have said here, use the mac as much as >>>>>> possible, especially when you learn it. That will >>>>> make the experience easier. >>>>>> /Krister >>>>>> >>>>>> 24 nov 2011 kl. 03:16 skrev Mary: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Traci, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the way I did it was to force myself to do everything I needed to do on >>>>>>> the Mac and stay away from Windows. No matter how >>>>> tempting it was, I didn't allow myself to use Windows at all While I was >>>>> learning to use the Mac. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 23, 2011, at 12:26 PM, Paul Mimms wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Most of us are more comfortable with what we have become familiar with >>>>>>>> using, therefore what is easier. You may find you >>>>> just need to stop making the decision whether to use the MacBook or the >>>>> PC and remove the PC from consideration. Make the >>>>> MacBook the only computer you use and make it work for you just as you >>>>> did with the PC at one time. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/23/2011 10:19 AM, Traci wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What is your advice on making the Mac experience feel natural? I'm >>>>>>>>> loving my Macbook Air, but I'm noticing I don't >>>>> naturally go to it. I'm still using my ancient windows laptop most of >>>>> the time. It can be 3 or 4 days, and I think I really >>>>> should go on my Mac. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> :) I guess I want to get to the point, where it is odd to pick up the >>>>>>>>> windows laptop. Any good suggestions? How long >>>>> did it take you before the Mac felt second nature? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Traci >>>>>>>>> Sent by Macbook Air Mail >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Yes, the glass is half full, but I'm not finished filling it! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > Tim Kilburn Fort McMurray, AB Canada -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
