Hello Paulo, Le Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:28:50 -0300, Paulo de Souza Lima <paulo.s.l...@varekai.org> a écrit :
> 2011/9/4 Charles-H. Schulz <charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> > > > Le 04/09/2011 16:38, Danishka Navin a écrit : > > >>>> I am not talking about the TDF community but external people. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> All right. But *who* are external people? And how can we > > >>> identify them? For > > >>> me the only fact someone is using LibreOffice is enough to put > > >>> him/her > > in. > > >>> > > >>> > > > > > > I think that anyway anyone can use the LibreOffice logo (without the > > subline) according to our TM policy. But I'm a bit skeptical as to > > how Paulo defines the people who contribute to LibreOffice and that > > we apparently are not aware of. We have defined pretty much (and > > with some range) who are contributors to our community and our > > project. The notion that somehow these people should not be trusted > > is weird and not really friendly-sounding. What do you mean, Paulo, > > that whatever contributors do should be taken with mistrust? > > > > Excuse me. where exactly have I said that? In your last email, and actually below once again :-) At least that's how I understand it. > My point is exactly the > opposite. Please, read my other message on this issue. By the way, I > don't think we can point exactly who are LibreOffice contributors and > who aren't. We have no tools to do it. I think we do. We have a Membership Committee for that. > > > > > > So yes, we're talking about stores, not about anyone selling a > > T-shirt. > > > > Hummm. I thought we were talking about *our* stores, not *any* store. The decision about whether we set up our own store (meaning our own e-commerce infrastructure) or we'd work with established merchant sites is something we need to discuss and that is of course not made at this point. > > > > In fact, anyone can sell a t-shirt with the LibreOffice logo > > without the TDF subline: I don't think it helps TDF, and I think it > > does anything but covering the cost of T-shirt production and > > whatever profit you want to make out of it. > > > I'm not sure what exactly this means. So, correct me if I'm wrong: > Anyone is able buy some blank t-shirts, print LibreOffice logo on > (without the TDF subline) and sell them. Yes, welcome to Free Software :-) > But those people can't have > any profit, neither to cover costs promoting LibreOffice, like > travels, hotels, folders, subscriptions to events, etc. Wait. This is a completely different topic. When people work together to attend an event, be part of the team of the LibreOffice project there should be a NGO, locally or regionally that should be able to reimburse them. The way it reimburse them is because it collects money and some of that money may come from selling t-shirts. This is a very old, traditional way to work in FOSS communities and I don't see why that would change. > Despite of > that, some TDF SC members can ask for reimbursement for the same > thing, when in a TDF mission, that comes directly from the money that > those people, you're saying they can't use LibreOffice community > brand for profit, gave to TDF. And the very same thing happens and is happening all over the world, as we speak, in various regional NGOs working to support LibreOffice. I don't see any problem with that. > > Don't get me wrong, but I think there's something strange in that > line of thinking. One thing is profit for itself. Another one is > profit for using it in Libreoffice promotion efforts. Yes, you're right. > And that's the > point I mean with *trust*: TDF should trust people will use the money > for promoting LibreOffice. Trust is one thing (in fact my lines above should send you a clear message about the fact that we trust people) but coordination, representation, and a minimum of resources pooling is necessary. A community is not only about selling T-shirts, it's also about development. If you have no developers, or logo designers, I don't know what you'll put on your T-shirts in the end... > > > > But I would also see disadvantages as clearly saying > > that we support anyone using our logo: otherwise why would we have > > any TM policy (and why would we have a foundation anyway?)? > > > > Question is not if TDF supports those people, but if those people > support TDF and LibreOffice. and that is the line, right there, where I feel there's mistrust. TDF *makes* LibreOffice. So if people have no confidence in LibreOffice or TDF they will stop using the software. But implying there's a confidence issue between users at large and the project itself is -again- something I don't understand (clearly, I don't see any trust problem, why should people not trust TDF is something I don't see). >The simple fact of using a t-shirt is > marketing, so it is a marketing effort and supports TDF. Personally, > I only use t-shirts from people I identify myself with them. I never > would use a t-shirt from Microsoft, would you? I wouldn't and I don't. But I also wear T-shirts of Debian, and it so happens that I am not a Debian user (was, years ago). I'm not calling myself a member of the Debian community because I have a Debian T-shirt. > LibreOffice brand is > not widely known, except in IT or FOSS environment. Those people > already know/use Libreoffice. They are not our main marketing target, > in my view. The "outsiders" are. You are right again, and I see -others do, I think- value in spreading the word about LibreOffice. But Danishka's question is different. He asks about an official TDF/Libo online store. > > So, giving people the freedom to use the community brand without any > hard restrictions about profit can spread the knowledge of the mark. > In parallel to it, a permanent campaign asking for people who sell > LibreOffice marketing stuff to contribute with part of their profit > to TDF. > > People have some kind of attraction for "official" stuff. So, we could > provide "official" t-shirts, "official" coffe cups, "official" > whatever, using the brand with the TDF subline. yes, that was the main point of the discussion. > Those stuff should be > available only in TDF stores, or in authorized resellers, who should > pay for that, and no one should be able to produce and sell that > items without TDF express permission. In that case I do agree the > brand (with the TDF subline) should be regulated. +1 (what are we arguing on again?) :-) Best, Charles. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > Cheers. > > > > Charles. > > > > -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to marketing+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
