Sounds more like "buyers remorse" to me. Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052
http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 ---- "Matthias Bärmann" <majbaerm...@web.de> wrote: ============= Mike Farmer wrote: > Everything else is diversion from that question. Perhaps not necessarily diversion, but interesting in another sense. Best, Matthias ----- Original Message ----- From: "meteoriteguy.com" <m...@meteoriteguy.com> To: "Matthias Bärmann" <majbaerm...@web.de> Cc: <nav...@intelius.com>; "MexicoDoug" <mexicod...@aim.com>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin & Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior Was there an unconditional Refund policy offered? That is the problem. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2011, at 7:19 AM, Matthias Bärmann <majbaerm...@web.de> wrote: > > Mr. Jain wrote: > >> "I am very new to the meteorite collection" ... > > > >> "3 days learning about meteorites and their classification" (...) > > > > He also wrote: > > > >> "I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their >> quality." > > > >> "I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesn‚Äôt look right to >> me" (...) > > > >> "makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low >> quality stuff" (...) > > > > Sounds somehow strange, no? > > > > Best, > > Matthias > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naveen Jain" <nav...@intelius.com> > To: "'MexicoDoug'" <mexicod...@aim.com> > Cc: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 3:22 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin & Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for > theirillegal behavior > > >> Doug, that was a long email but I will try to answer your questions with >> another long email. >> >> I am very new to the meteorite collection and just fell in love with them >> when I purchased my first set of these from Martin Horejsi. My experience >> with him was so pleasant that I just assumed that others in the meteorite >> community will be just like him. He didn‚Äôt want me to buy anything but >> asked me to learn about them before he would even consider selling them >> to me. I guess I should have known this since he is a professor by day >> and meteorite collector by night. After I spent 3 days learning about >> meteorites and their classification with him at an education event, he >> sent me home with the briefcase full of meteorites and told me to pay >> when I get home and think about it again. He told me that he will take >> anything and everything back if I ever decided that I have made a mistake >> in purchasing them. >> >> Back to Martin Altman and Stefan, it was a different experience. Martin >> will tell great story about each meteorite and kept suggesting to buy >> it. I was willing to look at these well described meteorites since I was >> assured of full refund if I return them within 3 weeks (their website >> clearly states that any customer can ask for full refund for any reasons >> within 30 days). They asked me to pay them full amount by wire (which >> should have been my first warning sign) before shipping them but they >> again assured me that I can return anything within 3 weeks. I contacted >> Martin back within hours of my receiving the meteorites to let him know >> that I plan to return 2 out of 9 meteorites because they didn‚Äôt look >> how I imagined from the picture and their description. I also did a bit >> of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. >> >> I am not sure if the meteorites are fake but they are certainly very low >> quality for the premium price I paid for these. I have since gotten to >> know Greg Hupe Adam Hupe and Michael Farmer. They each have given me >> unconditional 30 days money back guarantee and I have really enjoyed >> working with them. >> >> I tried very hard to resolve the issue with Martin and Stefan but Stefan >> didn‚Äôt want to resolve anything and told me Martin has no authority to >> return anything but can only sell stuff on his behalf. I am still hoping >> that Meteorite community can put enough moral pressure on Stefan and >> Martin Altman to do the right and fair thing. >> >> Just to answer your question specifically, I wanted to return Lunar Kreep >> because it just doesn‚Äôt look right to me and it was never touched, >> polished or modified in any way. >> >> Martin had one Urelite that needed classification but Stefan didn‚Äôt >> want to slice the piece for classification so he hammer broke a piece to >> send for analyses. Martin suggested that they should polish the broken >> surface before sending it to me along with polishing one other green >> Lunar meteorite that desperately needed polishing. I simply agreed what >> Martin said he needed to do before shipping with these meteorites. >> Irrespective, I am not even returning the Urelite specimen that was >> polished anyway. >> >> I think it was simply a greed and large sum that blinded them of their >> morals and obligations. Stefan and Martin Altman finally decided to sell >> their soul for large sum of money. IMCA board tried very hard to get them >> to honor their obligations but they refused which really makes me think >> that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff that >> they won‚Äôt ever be able to sell again. >> >> Warm regards, >> naveen >> >> Naveen Jain >> Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace >> Board of Trustee ‚Äì X Prize Foundation, Singularity University >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius >> >> From: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicod...@aim.com] >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:12 PM >> To: Naveen Jain >> Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: Re: Martin & Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal >> behavior >> >> Hi Naveen, >> >> So much for my request of an off-list info request ... so be it ... >> now that it is out in the open, there is absolutely nothing I see that >> would indicate that there is a question of authenticity, or quality >> however that would be defined - which is my sole worry. So I should >> stop right here. But I'm stubborn and will continue ... >> >> Unless all bridges are irreparably burned, I hope there is still >> something amicable that can be worked out to lessen the burns. >> >> You say: "I am still in shock because I expected the meteorite >> community to be small, friendly and ethical." >> >> As a community it is. But people are getting into disputes all the >> time. You can research it on this list and see flames that have flown >> throughout the years. Intelius is reliable, but not much else on the >> internet is. Everything else is caveat emptor. >> >> In a nutshell, without any input from the guys, and my pure speculation >> is you made that quarter of a million plus buck purchase and then tried >> to return 2/3 of it within the permissible window given to a bunch of >> guys used to dealing with new collectors purchasing $100 items for >> which they work night and day giving free lessons. If I read between >> the lines (and I have ZERO knowledge of this from the dealers) you felt >> you were overcharged. No doubt some other dealer told you that as he >> vied for the sale and your confidence and crapped bricks when he heard >> the amounts at stake. Dealers are like that behind closed doors - they >> eat each other for lunch for two orders of magnitude less. I'd like to >> invite you to come to the Tucson mineral show to assess this. And we >> all know that once a customer looses that "lovin feeling" for a rock, >> it's history. Why else would you agree to keep 8 of the 9 and just >> return the most expensive one and tell them to send you half of the >> cost of the second most expensive one back‚Ķ? >> >> For reasons we do not know, once the sale was poisoned, it looks like a >> dispute developed between the selling partners which resulted in your >> return/refund not being a deliverable, not honored. You then got pissed >> off at them and involved the IMCA which reticently fulfilled their >> obligation in accordance with your contract as you have described it. >> >> It comes down to a simple escape clause you had that wasn't honored? >> Correct? I beg you do not assail the authenticity of their stones >> unless you can point something out that was fake; quality is ambiguous >> in this situation if they are authentic: then they are authentic. Or >> is there a hidden defect such as glue, cracks, etc. Rake them over the >> coals as you deem fit, but the ramifications of alleging fakery go much >> beyond baseless suspicions of parties in a dispute; the effect is to >> put the entire meteorite world in serious turmoil and we all lose, just >> like the scare of the US defaulting on its debt - it is a cascade >> effect through everyone's collection and rumors are deadly and hurt us >> all since the community with the good material is so tightly knit. >> >> To put it in perspective, however, it would be instructive to know >> whether it was simply an issue of differing expectations regarding >> returning your money among the selling associates, or if there were >> some special requests you required to modify (cut, polish, etc) the >> stones transforming them into something else. That would explain why >> they didn't allow the return, but it wouldn't explain why you were >> apparently promised it was returnable. >> >> Alternately, and what I suspect, perhaps it was originally from Morocco >> and most of the cash went there to release the stone and can't be >> recovered. None of this is your concern given you owned the escape >> clause; however it would speak volumes on how such a sad situation >> could shock us by occurring. No one selling meteorites that I know has >> terrific cash flow and sometimes companies make risky decisions based >> on optimism that lead to insolvency and inability to honor their >> unsettled liabilities. That doesn‚Äôt make them unethical, it just makes >> them foolish businessmen. With that magnitude, don‚Äôt you wish you only >> offered X% up front and Y% upon satisfaction? Of course that has >> nothing to do with your contract, but this sort of thing could happen >> anywhere and this is nothing you failed to do - only a bitter >> contemplation to theoretically have avoided the catastrophe. Imagine >> buying a house with a cashier‚Äôs check for the full amount from a bunch >> of in-laws in partnership ...escrow comes to mind to avoid temptation. >> >> Good luck to you all. Today is seriously the most terrible day in >> meteoritidum I've ever had - a nightmare. I hope beyond all odds that >> something good comes with it for all those who have been burned. The >> meteorites sound absolutely astounding. As a last resort, I have a >> cardboard sign with magic marker written, ‚ÄúI werk for unwanted orphan >> Lunar meatyites‚Äù ;-) >> >> Kindest wishes >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Naveen Jain <nav...@intelius.com> >> To: 'MexicoDoug' <mexicod...@aim.com> >> Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 12:02 am >> Subject: RE: Martin & Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal >> behavior >> >> >> Doug, >> >> I am still in shock because I expected the meteorite community to be >> small, >> friendly and ethical. I have had wonderful experience purchasing, >> learning >> and getting guidance from Martin Horejsi, Adam Hupe, Greg Hupe, Michael >> Farmer and others. >> >> Martin Altman and Stefan got blinded by the large $$$ sale and couldn‚Äôt >> control their greed. They sold all of their ethics, morals and even the >> sense of unlawful activities for $264K. >> >> I commend IMCA board members for taking the ethics violation seriously. >> They >> spent countless hours investigating the complaint and concluded that >> Stefan >> and Martin needed to honor their obligations. See below email from >> president >> of IMCA so you can see the facts. This is not my personal opinion of >> fraud >> committed by Stefan and Martin Altman but this the opinion of 8 reputed >> meteorite community leaders on the board of IMCA. Here are the string of >> emails from Anne Black (President of IMCA) that speak for themselves: >> >> ========================================================================= >> >> From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 1:18 PM >> To: Naveen Jain >> Cc: j...@meteorites.com.au >> Subject: Re: Update >> >> Hello Naveen, >> >> Ok, we are done. >> Martin was voted off the Board last week. Then we asked for his >> resignation >> from the IMCA. He asked for a few days to think about it, then this >> morning >> he emailed us that he was resigning. >> I am still very sorry that we could not get to an amicable resolution of >> this dispute, I really hoped......., but in the end we were giving very >> little choice. >> Thanks you for your patience. >> >> Anne Black >> >> =================================================================== >> From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:28 PM >> To: altm...@meteorite-martin.de; Naveen Jain >> Subject: Complaint: Last attempt at a solution >> >> Naveen and Martin, >> >> Thank you for all the documentation you have both sent to us. We have >> reviewed it carefully, discussed it within the Board of Directors and we >> have voted on it. And we are now ready to act on this complaint. >> >> However, to be absolutely fair to both of you, we would like to give >> you one >> last chance to resolve this dispute with a mutually acceptable >> compromise. >> Going through the documentation we have isolated three options that have >> been suggested by either one of you at one time or another. These 3 >> options >> are listed below. >> Please look at them carefully and do let us know if there is anyway you >> might agree on either one of them. >> >> Let's give it a couple days for both of you to think about it, but if >> you >> tell us that no compromise is possible, then we are certainly ready to >> publish the decision we have reached in accordance with the ByLaws of >> the >> IMCA. >> >> >> 1)Return Kreep lunar for $124,387 and Green lunar for $54,152. Total >> $178,539. >> >> 2) Keep green lunar but return lunar Kreep for what was paid ($124,387) >> and >> refund 25K from the price of green lunar. Total refund: $149,387. >> >> 3) Return all meteorites for a full refund. >> >> Thank you for your patience and your cooperation. >> >> Copy sent to the Board of Directors >> >> Anne M. Black >> www.IMPACTIKA.com >> impact...@aol.com >> President of IMCA >> www.IMCA.cc >> ========================================================================= >> === >> = >> >> From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:24 PM >> To: Naveen Jain >> Cc: stefan ralew; altm...@meteorite-martin.de >> Subject: Dispute Resolution >> >> Hello, >> >> I am sorry to have to admit that the resolution is not what we were >> hoping >> for. >> >> Stefan Ralew has informed us that he is the legal owner of "Chladni's >> Heirs", as proven by the fact that your payments were sent to him and >> that >> the invoices came directly from him, not from Martin Altmann. Therefore >> he >> is the only one entitled to making any business decisions. >> Further Stefan Ralew has resigned from the International Meteorite >> Collectors Association, and has made it very clearly that any efforts >> from >> the IMCA regarding this dispute were not welcome. >> Therefore, working strictly within the framework of the IMCA ByLaws, >> there >> is nothing further we can do. >> >> Again I am very sorry we were not able to help you reach a mutually >> acceptable compromise. >> >> Thank you for your patience. >> >> >> Anne M. Black >> www.IMPACTIKA.com >> impact...@aol.com >> President of IMCA >> www.IMCA.cc >> >> ========================================================================= >> === >> == >> >> >> >> Naveen Jain >> Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace >> Board of Trustee ‚Äì X Prize Foundation, Singularity University >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius >> >> From: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicod...@aim.com] >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 7:49 PM >> To: Naveen Jain >> Subject: OFF LIST: Martin & Stefan >> >> Hello again Naveen - >> >> I am very sorry to learn about your problem. Shocked is more like it. >> I have always held Martin and Stefan in high esteem and honestly so you >> know have considered them friends. >> >> It is a shock that this would have happened. Though I am friendly with >> them, business is business and I would never mix the two. I have made >> several purchases from Martin and Stefan, some appreciable in amount >> and I am sure it is about $10K in total over the years. >> >> I would like to hear the story to be able to form my own opinion of >> what happened. It is very important to me to know that I am dealing >> with ethical people, even those that are/were friends. Sometimes >> friends can be terrible business associates, something I have run into >> in the past. So please give me the detailed information. I will keep >> it confidential - doesn't matter, and I'll be sure to give you my >> personal and confidential take on it if you ask in return for the >> information. >> >> And they are bigger fools than I though to mess with you, perhaps they >> didn't know who they were dealing with. >> >> Kindest wishes >> Doug >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Naveen Jain <nav...@intelius.com> >> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 9:57 pm >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of >> IMCA for illegal activities >> >> >> I just got the conformation from president of IMCA, Anne Black, that >> Stefan >> Ralew and Martin Altman are no longer member of IMCA. >> >> As you may already know, Stefan and Martin were systematically engaged >> in >> mail fraud and wire fraud. I was one of their many victims and decided >> to >> file a complaint against them with IMCA since they were both members of >> IMCA. Martin Altman had lured me in by lots of stuff by telling me that >> he >> was a board member of IMCA and I can return anything that I don't want >> or >> like. >> >> I have to thank IMCA board members for their diligent effort in >> investigating the complaint. IMCA board members unanimously concluded >> that >> Stefan and Martin needed to honor their obligations and act ethically >> as a >> member of IMCA. IMCA board laid out options for Stefan and Martin to >> honor >> their obligation. They were essentially asked to stop engaging in >> unethical >> and illegal behavior. >> >> See below is my official complaint to IMCA. As I said, IMCA thoroughly >> investigated the complaint and IMCA board unanimously voted to force >> them to >> honor their obligation of full refund. >> >> I strongly suspect that Stefan and Martin either sent me the either >> fake or >> low quality meteorite and were afraid to give the refunds for the >> garbage >> that they sold me under deceit and fraud of promising full refund with >> clear >> intent of not honoring the obligation. >> >> I am sending this note to warn all meteorite collectors to watch out so >> they >> don't become their next victim. I will be happy to provide more details >> if >> anyone wants it. I have consulted my legal counsel and probably will >> file >> lawsuit to avoid them from profiting from their illegal activities. I >> may >> also contact my friends at FBI to investigate their mail and wire fraud >> scam. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "I.M.C.A. International Meteorite Collectors Association" >> <questi...@imca.cc> >> To: <complai...@imca.cc> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:18 AM >> Subject: IMCA Complaints >> >> >>> >>> Your Name: Naveen Jain >>> Your E-Mail: nav...@intelius.com >>> Are you an IMCA member?: no >>> >>> Message: I am a new collector and purchased 9 meteorite specimens from >>> Martin Altman (director of IMCA). Martin touted his being a director >> of >>> IMCA to give me comfort and entice me to buy it from him. I >> specifically >>> asked him if I will be able to return any item that I didn't like and >> he >>> said that it's their normal practice and part of the German consumer >>> protection law (see email from him below). The return policy on their >>> website also clearly states the same i.e. a customer can return any >> item >>> within 30 days for a full refund. i contacted them within 24 hours of >> my >>> receiving the items that I want to return 2 of the 9 specimens that I >>> received. They are now refusing to return the item and refund my >> money. I >>> am now being told that I am somehow a business customer and my order >> that >>> was sold from their stock as shown on their website is somehow a >> custom >>> order because it was packed for shipping to US. >>> >>> I will like to refund everything to them if they have problem >> returning 2 >>> out of 9 orders. >>> >>> Here is the email from Martin Altman: >>> >>> From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] >>> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM >>> To: Naveen Jain >>> Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. >>> >>> Hi Naveen, >>> >>>> As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily >> return >>>> any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full >>>> refund. >>> >>> Nja."happily". perhaps not :-) ; >>> But of course that is our business standard. >>> And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By >> law we >>> would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the >> buyer >>> returns it within 3 weeks. >> >> Warm regards, >> Naveen >> >> Naveen Jain >> Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace >> Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > __________ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 > (20110802) __________ > > E-Mail wurde gepr¸ft mit ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __________ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6344 (20110802) __________ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6344 (20110802) __________ E-Mail wurde gepr�ft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
