The future of Plastic Buckets depends on the head and the debris content in the water, especially sand like material. The head and nozzle diameter enter in the play, as well, the design of the bucket for neck breaks, or even the buckets themselves.
NO plastic buckets were available for the work indicated below, Pelton and Quasi-Turgo Turbines made on Bronze and some in cast iron. The most damaging effect is the sand in the water, in some sites two tanks in series, we had to determine the desanding time of the water to define the desanding tanks volume before delivering the water to the pipe - also, the construction of the TWO tanks to include proper delivery of the water to REDUCE stirring action of any sand, already settled. in the first or second tank. Both tanks, in series, the first tank, receiving the water not in a stream through a pipe but the water delivered on a wide flat leveled surface to reduce water stirring action, same way for the second tank. One critical aspect was the length of the tank, the longer the better for the water to have the time to allow the sand to settle on the bottom. some times we had a ratio of 1 to 10 ( width to length). The second tank to do final very small debris cleaning, ratio 1 to 5. Incredibly the amount of "dust" sand deposited in the second tank. Volume of the first tank :settling time (to attain better than 80 % sand reduction) times (liter/sec)^2.5 = (liter-second)/1000 =M^3 of the tank. Turbine with 10 liter/sec So: 30 seconds for 80 % desanding time, times 10^2.5 = (9486 l-sec)/1000 = 9.5 M^3 tank This was an empirical formula that was derived observing the local streams carrying sand and other materials and in some cases the volume of the first tank was increased to the third power. Most of the sand was deposited close to the intake area, with the finer deposited farther from the intake. Sand removal was done sometimes automatically via a large pipe placed on the bottom close to the intake area. Washed sand ideal for concrete work. Regards Nando ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Bonifetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025 Hi Michael, Max and all: Well friends, time and more thinking would be the future for plastic buckets. In a 8 kW, 200 m head vertical Pico Pelton direct drive in a Switzerland dairy I can see, in 1992, that plastic buckets were broken frequently; the high head would be the problem. We must introduce first the most cheaper and reliable pico sets for the chilean geographic condition. We have a very very long country and trips/communication are a big problem, as Max said. I'm involved in a rural microhydro project in central Chile, wih 2 MPH Plants small villages and hat needs five picohydro sets 1 - 1.5 kW for isolated peasant dwellers. Enginnering is ready since some 6 month ago. This is an opportunity for use standard kits for electricity and direct drive tools. I'm following up this project that will be implemented about November. Dicember 2004. Regards, Carlos ---------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Max Klohn To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025 Hi Michael, The failed runners I am talking of are injection moulded individual buckets which are then assembled on a metallic or metal-plastic axis then glued with epoxy. They do not stand up to vibrations. I am not ruling plastic out, especially monobloc, but given the previous local experience of CLIENTS it would be hard to sell anything "plastic". Especially if people have to add an expensive and burdensome trip for each replacement. As Carlos Bonifetti stated, stuff in remote places has to be sturdy and need as little replacements as possible. Just think of the additional problems in communications, access etc. The low RPM Smartdrives and plastic runners certainly fit a slot in relatively low head/high flow situations. Max El mi�, 27 de 10 de 2004 a las 17:06, Michael Lawley escribi�: > Hi, > > Rather than rule out a particular material based on a previous experience it might be prudent to take up my offer to try a free sample. We use plastic runners on our Pelton turbines and do not have problems. They are perfectly balanced, low mass, low cost and very easy and simple to replace if after several years they do need replacing. We supply all our customers with a spare set of Pelton spoons for when that day arrives. > > We can supply volume orders of 25 kg at a time (about 1000 of them) at a very good price. Local labour can then assemble them onto steel disc hubs. We've been making them for nearly 2 years and to date have not had any problems. > > I think you might be comparing the cast epoxy type runner with injection moulded ones. > > We can also supply volume smart drive generators at a very good price and would even consider sharing the risk if there are some entrepreneurs out three looking to set up business making good low cost Pelton turbines with efficient low speed PMG generators. Making this type of equipment affordable, simple and easy to fix using parts that are plentiful is important. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Michael Lawley > Renewable Energy Engineer > EcoInnovation > 671 Kent Road > R.D.1 > New Plymouth > New Zealand > > Phone: (NZ) 06 752 2765 > Web site: www.ecoinn.co.nz > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Max Klohn > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:48 AM > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025 > > > > Dear all, > > Those peltric look good and and one might even be able to choose the > right parameters per-site. The question is the costs for an import > operation... Would probably need some volume to be cost-effective. > > IMHO the mising link here in Chile to locally produce peltrics is a > reliable local or imported source for cheap IGC's (and their replacement > parts). The rest of the stuff is available, or ppl can be trained. > > I do *not* believe in plastic runners, at least the locally supplied, > after what I have seen here. And it would be hard to sell more plastic > runners, even sturdy ones, to the people who have had problems with > previous ones. > > Let us talk... > Regards, > > Max > > El lun, 25 de 10 de 2004 a las 16:07, Carlos Bonifetti escribi�: > > Thanks to all; Peltric sets from Mr. A.M. Nakarmi industry could be a good alternative for mountain dwellers. > > For plastic runners from Michael, let me study and talk about them with Max, first. > > Regards, > > Carlos > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Stewart Craine > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 2:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] Digest Number 1025 > > > > > > > > Can I also suggest a complete unit from Kathmandu Metal Industries, which is boxed up and ready to operate - called a Peltric set. > > > > www.nepalmicrohydropower.com > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > There are 2 messages in this issue. > > > > Topics in this digest: > > > > 1. Re: chinese turbine sets > > From: Michael Lawley > > 2. Bronze Turgos in Bolivia > > From: Ron and Diane > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 13:30:16 +1300 > > From: Michael Lawley > > Subject: Re: chinese turbine sets > > > > > > Hi Carlos, > > > > Have you tried one of our plastic Pelton rotors? The buckets can be quickly replaced and are very cheap to purchase if bought in bulk. We use them commonly in the 45-80m range without significance ware issues. Above 100m accelerated wear be expected but the cost to replace them is little. > > > > I am happy to send you a set for testing. We can make them in just about any plastic type you like but the minimum run is 1000. > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Michael Lawley > > Renewable Energy Engineer > > EcoInnovation > > 671 Kent Road > > R.D.1 > > New Plymouth > > New Zealand > > > > Phone: (NZ) 06 752 2765 > > Web site: www.ecoinn.co.nz > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Carlos Bonifetti > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Cc: Max Klohn > > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 3:41 AM > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets > > > > > > > > Dear Max and all: > > > > Thanks for your comments. Yes, the PowerPals "high head" sets are relatively in the lower range for most picohydro sites in chilean mountains. We need heads grater than, say about 45 m, when we can harness only very small flows. > > > > As Nando thinks, plastic runners can be used but made with good quality plastic compounds. We have here in Concepcion good foundry facilities for making small metal turgo & Pelton runners. > > > > Engineer Mauricio Gnecco [EMAIL PROTECTED] , in Colombia, makes small Pelton runners with recicled aluminum in 1 piece using the "lost wax" method. It's good but very much time consuming. > > > > Thanks for your hospitality. When I can program a trip to the south I can tell you for fix a date in common. > > > > Regards, > > > > Carlos > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Max Klohn > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:22 AM > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets > > > > > > > > Dear Carlos and microhydro list, > > > > Thank you for the specs. Powerpal gear looks good. I believe those are > > slightly retooled vietnamese sets. Looking at the specs, even their > > "high heads" are quite low by our local standards. The rest of the stuff > > is geared to more substantial flows. > > Some more facts to consider: > > * In spite it rains 3 to 4 m yearly here (!), summer months can be quite > > dry and most streamlets tend to run very low. That would be a problem. > > This incited me to research higher head/low flow solutions. > > * There is *no* road in most of the places where we would like to see > > sets installed. The maximum diameter of HDP tubing that it is reasonable > > to carry in those conditions is about 2 inches. Agreed, a couple of > > those could be run in paralell, but this increases the costs. > > > > > > Someone in the list proposed DC gear. While I (like most of the local > > people that have installed something here) currently have this (550 W > > with 100 m net head and 1.7 l/s), and it is easier on constraints there > > are some clear limits: > > > > * the kind of inverter that is needed to run fridges, congelators and > > washing machines is way too expensive for most of the rural > > people budgets, and cheap square-wave inverters just tend to fry with > > small tools and fridges. > > * The main stimulus for replacing the currently installed base of > > installations would be the ability to run fridges and congelators. That > > could in turn improve the possibility for additional earnings (i.e. > > working with "agrotourism"). That is a typical "hen and egg" problem. > > * The main annual cost for the installations is the replacement of old > > battery sets (people use cheap casr batteries that only last a couple of > > years) > > * Disposal of old batteries is a big ecological problem > > * Plastic runners just do not cut it with high heads (I had one that > > barely lasted one week) > > > > In brief, we do need a way to generate 220V AC directly. > > I have thought that for most cases with high head, a 3000 RPM Weg > > induction motor coupled with condensators and an IGC (a la Nigel Smith) > > could do. Fridges would probably need to be power-corrected though. > > > > I have been training a local metalworks to make small bolted, polished > > pelton runners, after some trial-and-error the results are starting to > > look decent. "Chill-casting" or "two step casting" as advocated in > > jeremy Thake's book did not work, it would have significantly reduced > > fabrication costs. > > > > I'd be very glad to meet you in Puerto Varas when you come, but let's > > fix the date in advance: I live way out in Todos los Santos, so you also > > have the option to come here, stay at my home, and see a couple of > > installations. > > > > Greetings, > > > > Max > > > > > > El mar, 19 de 10 de 2004 a las 10:37, Carlos Bonifetti escribi�: > > > Dear Max: > > > > > > I'm Carlos from MTF LTDA., Concepcion. I was thinking in your trial for pico-hydro set for low income peasants in the northern chilean Patagonia since a lot of time, but the long distance is a trouble for marketing in site planning. Minimun qty. for low price sets is a must looking for good import discounts. I can offer Turgo or Pelton sets from APR PowerPal www.powerpal.com as we are their representatives in Chile. I was in trouble for answer you because an updating Windows XP had thow away several mail adresses from my directory. > > > > > > I know chinese sets from Maqchin, Santiago, but not in practice. The technical specs. and data for those turbine sets are poor an too general for heigth, flow ranges, control, etc., for a safe application. Permanent magnet alternators can be used only for light en uses as lamps, TV and video sets, radio, and very small domestic electical powered devices; I think that refrigerator can't connected because the high starting current. > > > > > > Our experience with PowerPal is good with the low head MHG-LH sets for 200, 500 & 1000 Watts, permanent magnet alternators running at 1000 RPM. Water flow needed for those are 35, 70 and 130 l/s respectively for 1.5 m gross head. We have, installed by us, a MHG-1000 in the Quinquen Valley rural school (near Lonquimay) and works well since 1991. > > > > > > Perhaps will be good that we can both program a meeting in Puerto Varas for talk, face to face, about this interesting and very important and common task. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Carlos Bonifetti > > > Concepci�n, Chile > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Max Klohn > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:37 AM > > > Subject: [microhydro] chinese turbine sets > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > For a project oriented at low-income, isolated mountain dwellers in > > > northern patagonia, I have been looking at ready-made, low cost peltric > > > sets, or the possibility to import or have built Induction Motor > > > Controllers. Typical parameters are 1-5 l/s and 30 to 100 m head. The > > > equipment has to be low cost, low maintainance and robust, and involves > > > a significant component of technology transfer to the rural dwellers who > > > must be able to maintain their equipment. > > > > > > I have recently come upon the following chinese sets, who feature a > > > permanent magnet alternator, a controller and a dump load (integrated in > > > the base). > > > http://www.maqchin.com/maqchin/pages/maquinaria_china_ltda_productos_centrales_hidroelectricas.htm > > > models of interest are XJL 13-2 x 4.5 (750 W) and XJL 1 x 3.0 (3000 W) > > > > > > In the model I could examine, the rotor was a relatively crudely built > > > (unpolished) turgo. The nozzle is huge and it is geared towards lower > > > heights and bigger flows. I am trying to get the parameters of the > > > rotational speed etc. > > > > > > * does someone have more data and a practical experience with those > > > sets? lessons learned? > > > * any experiences into adapting this equipment to higher heads/lower > > > flows? > > > > > > Thank you, and best regards > > > > > > Max Klohn > > > > > > Puerto Varas, Chile > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > > > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. > > > > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net > > > > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > > > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. > > > > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net > > > > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. > > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net > > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. > > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net > > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:55:27 -0400 > > From: Ron and Diane > > Subject: Bronze Turgos in Bolivia > > > > > > > > Hello Carlos, > > > > Perhaps you have seen my www.watermotor.net site. We make bronze > > turgo wheels here in Bolivia for our patented Watermotors. I will send you > > a photo. These have been tested and certified here at the University of San > > Andres Hydraulic Institute at 75% efficiency. The one in the photo has a > > 150 mm hydraulic diameter, or about 200 mm overall diameter. You may notice > > our patented power control switch that makes it possible to use the > > Watermotor to directly drive machines. > > All the best, > > Ron Davis, > > Campo Nuevo, > > La Paz, Bolivia > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. > > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net > > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. > > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net > > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. > > > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net > > > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. > > More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net > > To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Get unlimited calls to U.S./Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free of charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who provides us with free email group services. The microhydro-group does not endorse products or support the advertisements in any way. More information on micro hydropower at http://microhydropower.net To unsubscribe: send empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microhydro/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
