And that comes down to social infrastructure, opportunity, and hope. If I promise that you will always always always have the right to keep and bear arms, can we have socialized college level education for high school graduates with a 3.0 or better GPA who perform 20 hours a month of community service, and universal general health care services (no specialists, no elective medical, no cosmetic), all paid for with a 5% increase in the income tax?
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > > Neil, > I agree with you there. The biggest issue is a social issue. Guns > are not conscious, like you said I proved (although I don't know how > or when). People are conscious. We have societies with loose gun > control laws and low gun crime, societies with strict gun control laws > and low gun crime, societies with loose gun control laws and high gun > crime, and societies with strict gun control laws, and high gun > crime. Since it appears that the correlation between gun control laws > and gun crime are mere correlation, there must be something else going > on. That something else involves a social problem. I have guns, and > I've never used them in an illegal manner, nor will I ever. The > bloods and the crypts have guns, and they most assuredly will use them > in an illegal manner. I grew up with good discipline, I'm suspecting > they did not. Maybe that is where the focus of solutions should be. > Focus on the reason for the behavior, not on the means in which they > act out. > > On Feb 2, 12:22 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > Britain is a place where we have idiots who talk about snapping knife- > > points off to defend cabbages in the kitchen and samurai swords on > > sale in order that "collectors" can hang them over the mantel piece of > > their social housing. The laughter stops when one realises the people > > who allow both situations make decisions that end up with decent cops > > shot in front of their families. Craig has proved yet again that guns > > appear not to be conscious, no doubt Chris agrees and a whole shed- > > load of useless figures have been thrown about. As usual it is not > > easy to compare like with like and no one shows any sign of real > > statistical analysis - identifying relevant populations, samples, > > techniques, questions and doing iterative work. We are short of facts > > and long on people claiming them and getting offended. > > Amongst one thing I'd like to know is how many of the people getting > > killed by guns are worth giving a second thought to. There clearly > > are some, and also clearly more of such in mega-numbers in military > > ventures. Much further down the line from this posturing I also > > wonder whether heavy policing (maybe on the Japanese model?) might get > > into the idiot, illegal issue of guns and other violence. Kids who > > disrupted classrooms in my day were not popular and held in check by > > their peers, who did not want to suffer the inevitable collective > > punishment. Much in this area eventually comes down to compromise and > > the need for control beyond legislation. > > > > On 2 Feb, 19:03, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > That's crazy! I didn't know that! Here is a link to the texas law. > http://www.self-defender.net/law3.htm > > > Idaho does not have a law like that. And the texas law appears to be > > > limited to intruders in the night. I would argue that the rationale > > > behind the texas law is still supported by the original purpose of > > > protecting the individual when the individual has a reasonable fear > > > for his life or serious bodily harm. If someone comes onto your > > > property in the night time to take your things, its very likely you > > > will be unable to ascertain whether that person is armed or not, this > > > creates a very dangerous situation for you, and the state is willing > > > to find a self defense situation here. > > > > > On Feb 2, 11:56 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I agree that deadly force should only be used to protect life and > > > > bodily harm. However, in Texas, it is legal to protect property with > > > > deadly force. This is why Joe Horn didn't go to jail for murder. I > > > > recommend against it. I'd rather be out a few thousand dollars worth > > > > of 'stuff' then deal with the publicity and hounding involved in > > > > killing someone. I must say I prefer having the option to protect my > > > > property with deadly force. I hope the thieves keep this in mind as > > > > well. > > > > > > dj > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Kierkecraig < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > gruff, > > > > > I don't know what you mean by the forum turning political and > > > > > moralist. I thought we had a pretty good discussion going. > > > > > And I wanted to add to your self defense discussion. (this is fresh > in > > > > > my mind because I'm studying for the bar exam) Self defense can > only > > > > > be obtained by using reasonable force. Reasonable force is > determined > > > > > by looking at what force is being used against the defender. If > the > > > > > person is coming at you with fists, and is about the same size as > you, > > > > > then you can't pull a gun out and shoot them, this would be > > > > > unreasonable. Also, you can't use deadly force to defend property. > > > > > Sometimes people get confused about this because self defense is > > > > > obviously viable in a home invasion situation. However, the > rationale > > > > > behind the home invasion self defense is that you are protecting > your > > > > > life and your families life, not your valuables or your physical > > > > > home. When someone invades your home, there is a presumption that > you > > > > > have a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury. > > > > > I think its important that we understand the self defense defense > when > > > > > having a gun discussion, because it often turns into straw man > > > > > argument about people protecting their belongings by deadly force > and > > > > > how human life is more precious than worldly goods. So thanks for > > > > > bringing it up. > > > > > > > On Feb 2, 10:54 am, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> How did a forum on guns turn so political and moralist? > > > > > > >> Fact: The U.S. Supreme Court finally ruled last year that the 2nd > > > > >> Amendment covered every citizens' right to own and possess a gun > > > > >> except those legally so prohibited. > > > > > > >> Fact: In the vast majority of crimes committed with guns, those > guns > > > > >> were acquired illegally -- usually theft or purchase on the black > > > > >> market. > > > > > > >> Fact: There is no way to prevent tragedies such as Columbine other > > > > >> than the family, friends and authority figures seeing the > devolution > > > > >> of the perpetrator's mental condition before the tragedy and > treating > > > > >> him or her. > > > > > > >> Fact: Anyone who wants a gun can lay their hands on one, legally > or > > > > >> illegally. > > > > > > >> Fact: In most states in the U.S. -- the only country I can speak > for > > > > >> with some credibility -- self defense is a viable defense in the > use > > > > >> of a weapon against another -- but only until the threat is > removed or > > > > >> quashed. In other words, if someone breaks in your house and when > you > > > > >> confront them they turn and run, the threat is removed and the > > > > >> resident no longer has the availability of self defense as a > defense > > > > >> should he (or she) shoot the intruder in the back. In other > words, > > > > >> self defense is only viable while the threat exists. Once the > threat > > > > >> is removed, self defense is no longer viable. > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
