I agree with you, Slip Disc, about all those Police Shootings of innocent or at least not actually dangerous civilians. And I agree with you and others about the right to having and owning a gun.....I think you know where I may be going with this..... Question is, who should I be protecting myself against with it? Now, I'm not crazy... I try to do things legally... but the question is a valid one. nominal9
On Feb 4, 1:20 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > Nonetheless, the decision reignited debate over whether such laws > allow homeowners to use more force than necessary in their defense. > Critics argue that the laws, which have proliferated in recent years, > have essentially given homeowners a license to kill. <<< nom9 > > Generally, the number of justifiable homicides committed by police > exceeded the number committed by > citizens.http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/justify.htm > > Really nom, what's the difference with police having a license to kill > and a homeowner having a license to kill? > Police are notorious for killing unarmed people who make threatening > gestures or appear to have a knife of gun, or even look like they may > be reaching for a gun. > Detroit police officers kill citizens at a higher rate than police in > any other big US city. Former police executives and attorneys > acknowledged that officers feel they can murder and terrorize city > residents with impunity because they will not be held accountable. > ....................they saw Grable walking in the rain, carrying a > gun. The police said Grable, who did not have a criminal record, ran > away when challenged and Brown opened > fire.http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/may2000/det-m17.shtml > > The police department has been given a far wider latitude to infringe > on civil liberties and use deadly force. > These police killings also take place in the context of the > reconfiguration of the NYPD under the Patriot Act and other measures > introduced under the Bush administration’s “war on terrorism.” > In 1999, four plainclothes police shot and killed an unarmed African > immigrant, Amadou Diallo, in a hail of 41 bullets in the vestibule of > his Bronx apartment house. In 2000, undercover police attempting to > conduct a “sting” operation against low-level drug dealers killed > Patrick Dorismond, an innocent Haitian immigrant. > Ousmane Zongo, a 35-year-old immigrant from Burkina Faso, western > Africa was repairing African art on the third floor of a storage room > in the Chelsea section of Manhattan when police raided the building. > Police officer Bryan Conroy fired his pistol at the art worker five > times, hitting him four times in the abdomen, chest and arm. The > victim died a few hours later. The raid by a total of eight officers > was directed against a counterfeit CD operation allegedly operating > out of the warehouse. Mr. Zongo was unarmed, had no criminal record, > and had no relation whatsoever to the counterfeiting > ring.http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jun2003/nypd-j04.shtml > > "There is a crisis of perception where African American males and > females take their lives in their hands just walking out the > door."http://www.colorlines.com/article.php?ID=255 > > So.......... > At the least as a homeowner I could have the "right" to own "in case" > the need to defend and protect arises. > > Just for the record I currently don't own a gun but still would like > to have the "right" to own one should my four dogs quit. > > IMO, > Slip > > On Feb 4, 10:11 am, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > But then again.....How about, getting to the issue of WHEN to use such > > deadly force?.... Don brought up the Horn case, in Texas (that I > > thought was not a warranted shooting).... here's another case > > recently in the news... Sean Kennedy, in Colorado Springs.... > > nominal9 > > Original thread: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum60/21218.html > > > Source > > URL:http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/02/shooting-death-fuels-... > > > COLORADO SPRINGS > > Sean Kennedy, a 22-year-old golf pro, drunkenly banged on the door, > > yelled obscenities and smashed a window as he tried to enter what he > > thought was his house. > > > But it wasn't his home. The house, located a block from Mr. Kennedy's > > residence, but showing the same house number, belonged to James > > Parsons. As Mr. Kennedy reached his arm through the broken window in > > an effort to unlock the back door, Mr. Parsons, who was inside with > > his girlfriend, shot and killed him. > > > Colorado Springs prosecutors last week exonerated Mr. Parsons, saying > > that he acted within the scope of the state's "Make My Day" law, which > > allows homeowners to use deadly force against intruders. > > > "A reasonable person in those circumstances would have believed that > > [Mr. Kennedy] was going to do a crime against them or their property," > > District Attorney Dan May said. > > > Nonetheless, the decision reignited debate over whether such laws > > allow homeowners to use more force than necessary in their defense. > > Critics argue that the laws, which have proliferated in recent years, > > have essentially given homeowners a license to kill. > > > "What's happening among gun owners is that there's less accountability > > and less responsibility," said Scott Vogel, spokesman for the Freedom > > States Alliance in Chicago, which opposes the "Make My Day" laws. "Gun > > owners are taking these laws and drawing their own conclusions and > > using them as a 'get out of jail free' card." > > > The debate is likely to intensify as more states adopt and expand such > > statutes. Since 1985, 16 states have approved "Make My Day" statutes - > > known to critics as "Shoot to Kill" laws - with more legislation > > expected this year, said Sam Hoover, staff attorney for the Legal > > Community Against Violence in San Francisco. > > > Besides Colorado, the 15 other states are Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, > > Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, > > Mississippi, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Carolina and South Dakota, Mr. > > Hoover said. > > > Even in states that have approved such laws, however, deciding whether > > the statute applies can be tricky. Colorado Springs prosecutors > > wrestled with the case for a month before deciding against filing > > charges in the Dec. 28 shooting. > > > About 10 p.m., Mr. Kennedy, who had been drinking at a Denver Broncos > > football party with friends, drove up in his truck to the house at > > 3212 Virginia Ave. and tried to enter. Police say he was looking for a > > house he shared with roommates at 3212 N. Institute St., located a > > block away. His blood alcohol level was later tested at 0.26, more > > than three times the legal limit of 0.08 for driving in Colorado. > > > When Mr. Parsons and his girlfriend heard the pounding at the door, > > they called 911 and pleaded for help. Mr. Parsons' girlfriend stayed > > on the phone for about 4 1/2 minutes, during which time the shots were > > fired. > > > "Oh, my God, he's coming in the back door," said the woman, who was > > not identified, during the call. "Are they on their way because - oh > > my God, he broke in the glass!" > > At that point, Mr. Kennedy had walked around the house and broken a > > window next to the back door. He was reaching through the broken glass > > to unlock the dead bolt when Mr. Parsons fired three shots through the > > window with a .38 Special. > > > "Get the ambulance! I shot him," Mr. Parsons said in the background. > > "He broke his arm in the window, and he was coming in the house!" > > > Mr. May said the panicky call and efforts by the homeowners to deter > > Mr. Kennedy - they shouted for him to leave several times - offered > > proof that they were in fear for their safety. > > > The Colorado law states that "citizens of Colorado have a right to > > expect absolute safety within their own homes," and that lethal force > > may be used against someone who illegally enters a dwelling with the > > intent to commit a crime or use physical force against the occupant. > > > "The evidence from the dispatch tape and from investigative interviews > > indicated that they were both terrified during this incident and were > > traumatized by these events," said Mr. May in a statement. > > > One point of contention was whether Mr. Kennedy could be considered an > > intruder, since he never actually entered the home. Prosecutors said > > that having his arm inside the house constituted breaking and > > entering. > > > "It doesn't have to be the entire body. His arm was in the house," > > Deputy District Attorney Gail Warkentin said. "Breaking and entering > > might have been breaking the lock on the screen door - it could be as > > little as that - but certainly after he had his arm in the house." > > > Mr. Kennedy's family remains distraught over the shooting, she said. > > After graduating from high school in 2004, Mr. Kennedy had worked as a > > golf pro at two Colorado Springs golf clubs. > > > "I spoke to Sean's father, and he's obviously grieving for his son. He > > told me he wished the homeowner had shown more restraint," Ms. > > Warkentin said. "He said his son didn't deserve to die." > > > Critics called the Kennedy case a classic example of a fatality that > > could have been avoided if the homeowner had taken evasive action - > > for example, leaving the house through the front door - but having a > > "Make My Day" law on the books makes it less likely that homeowners > > will do so. > > > "There's every indication that this gun owner could have shouted at > > this guy, yelled at him," Mr. Vogel said. "Instead, even though he > > hadn't been harmed, he just shot him. You didn't sense that he and his > > girlfriend were in immediate peril, and that used to be the > > standard." > > > Dudley Brown, president of Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, said the couple > > couldn't have known how violent Mr. Kennedy was, or whether he was > > armed. > > > "There's no such thing as 'shoot to wound.' That's only in movies," > > said Mr. Brown, a certified firearms instructor. "They made their best > > effort to let law enforcement deal with it, but here's a news flash > > for liberals: The police can't always be there when you're in > > trouble." > > > Despite the debate, "Make My Day" laws remain popular with state > > legislatures, with new bills introduced every year to implement or > > expand such laws. > > > In Colorado, a legislative committee last week heard testimony on > > behalf of > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
