If what you say and what you do are almost always two different things, I can see how it would be easy to say that you can just tough out pain and take nothing for it. I hope to high heaven that you never experience gout, meningitis, compound fracture of a bone or final stage cancer. But given the honest revelation of your track record, I would say you would opt for the pain relief should something like this occur.
I agree with Chris, and although I subscribe to a more holistic version of medicine, I know that there are cases where, when people are suffering in extreme pain, if there is something that can make them more comfortable, I would give it gladly and hope that it would be accepted. Likewise, if there were something occurring that was debilitating and preventing someone from living a functional live, that there was a remedy that would allow them to regain their functionality, I would also encourage it. I can also respect Craig's point that substances can be used too often and for the wrong reasons. But I think this in itself creates a journey for the participant that requires eventual self realization or self destruction. Pain can be endured to a point, because the body will eventually change its own chemistry to help us out. But sometimes it can't adjust enough and help, if available, is needed. If help is available, it is also in perfect order. But I think, Craig, your argument goes a bit overboard when you suggest that all pain should be endured. I like your comment, actually, that pain is good for the soul, although I think it too broad a generalization. It is true, that if we are in the habit of avoiding pain or have an egotistical, patterned response to look away from what has caused us pain in the past, pain may just be what leads us to that dark night of the soul. In these cases, accepting and moving through the pain may be the only way to keep this from occurring again. Being called into soul searching with pain is probably best documented by St. John of the Cross, who will tell us that if we don't hear the first calling, the pain will become larger and larger with each calling until we do listen. But I don't think that even he would deny a dying man relief from his agony from whatever the doctor has available. Pleasure can be addicting, and if we are immature enough to seek pleasure at the cost of our functionality and relationships, then I guess it would be too much pleasure. On Mar 26, 12:36 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > I drew that implication (hippie, etc.) not just from here, but from > other posts on the topic, and because it often goes hand in hand with > the position of weakness argument, but perhaps it's unfair. I > apologize if I misunderstood your feeling on the topic. > > Pain avoidance is certainly a primal instinct...I can't think of any > reason why we would intentionally cause ourself pain unless it was for > a specific benefit, such as with exercise, or rough sex. When the pain > (or other symptomology, including basic loss of mobility or other > function) becomes debilitating, this goes beyond pain avoidance, and > becomes a matter of functionality. While some look down on others > needing a "crutch", to the man with a broken leg, it's simply > unavoidable. > > The concept of "excess pleasure" I find particularly interesting. How > do you know when it becomes excess? How much pleasure is just enough? > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Chris, > > Nothing in my posts have suggested that I think all marijuana users > > are hippies wanting an excuse to get high. I have no doubt that the > > stories you tell me are true. I just question the value in making all > > of our decisions from a position of weakness. Should our moral theory > > be based on right being that which either gives us an excess of > > pleasure or that which helps us avoid pain? Many say that that is the > > only theory. I am questioning whether it is. What would our world be > > like if all of our decisions were made from a position of strength? > > Its just something I've been toying with, but I'm too tired tonight to > > think about it. I'm in a position of weakness right now, I'll be back > > when I'm in a position of strength. :) > > > On Mar 24, 1:20 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Ah, so you do enjoy a bit of novacaine when having molars extracted > >> then...and admit that you're only being pedantic and pedagogical when > >> making such broad condemnations across a vast portion of the > >> population. > > >> In your defense, the "Mormons' Struggle" is part of your ideology. > >> Combined with the "Salt of the Earth" hard working farmers' lifestyle, > >> I would expect a hard edged outlook. However, even farmers like a good > >> pint of beer and a couple of Advil after plowing the north 40. It's > >> all about gradients. > > >> Winston Churchill turned to the attractive woman next to him and > >> asked, "Madam, would you be convinced to sleep with me for a million > >> pounds?" > > >> "A million pounds? Why, of course!" she replied. > > >> "Well then, how about ten pounds?" he asked. > > >> "Mr. Churchill! What kind of woman do you think I am?" she responded > >> angrily. > > >> "We've already established that," he replied. "Now we're negotiating the > >> price." > > >> When there are exceptions to the rule, then we have validated the fact > >> that the rule is not absolute, and what constitutes an exception > >> varies according to the perception of the person granting the > >> exception. You may find it weak that my best friend, who has an > >> advanced degenerative case of MS needs both Merinol and smoked > >> Marijuana to ease the muscle spasticity and other symptoms to be able > >> to function as a normal human, but I assure you, his struggles to > >> continue functioning as a tax paying citizen and good father to three > >> children are as challenging some mornings as an Olympian struggling to > >> shave another 3/100ths of a second off their track time. You mean no > >> disrespect to him, you don't know him, and yet you flippantly dismiss > >> his pain and suffering as weakness, without ever having witnessed or > >> considered his life. > > >> You think that the pain is good for his soul; yet, what good comes of > >> his complete inability to walk or pick up his child? This is what his > >> life is like without marijuana. Is that good for his soul, to be > >> locked in a claw fisted position on the couch? > > >> You, like many others, make judgements about a movement that you know > >> little about. You discount the medical marijuana movement because you > >> assume that medical marijuana patients are malingerers looking for an > >> excuse to get high. Until you can get past your narrow perspective > >> which automatically associates marijuana with burnout stoner hippie, > >> you'll never be able to judge the issue fairly on its merits, or see > >> medical marijuana patients with a truly sympathetic eye. That doesn't > >> bode well for your defense attorney work... ;) > > >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > > >> > What I say and what I do are almost always two different things. :) > >> > But just because I don't practice what I preach doesn't mean that what > >> > I preach is wrong. So I wouldn't call myself a stoic, but a defender > >> > of stoicism. > > >> > On Mar 23, 11:10 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Congratulations, you're a stoic. You're in good company...Marcus > >> >> Aurelius would agree with you completely. And yes, if someone saws > >> >> your leg off without anesthetic, you will most certainly see God. > > >> >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:07 AM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> > >> >> wrote: > > >> >> > Get rid of it all. We're all a bunch of pansies. We need to go back > >> >> > to the days when they pulled teeth with pliars. Thats when men were > >> >> > MEN. :) > > >> >> > On Mar 23, 7:22 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> What about anesthesia for dental procedures, or surgery? > > >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Kierkecraig > >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > Chris, > >> >> >> > I'm very unsympathetic to the marijuana apologists arguments. > >> >> >> > Their > >> >> >> > arguments always appeal to weakness. I'm of the philosophy that > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > only good arguments are the arguments that appeal to a position of > >> >> >> > strength. If you want a spiritual experience, why do it the easy > >> >> >> > way? Its good for the soul to have to work for something like > >> >> >> > that. > >> >> >> > And why would you want drugs to relieve you from pain? Pain is > >> >> >> > good > >> >> >> > for the soul as well. And if you don't stand in the position of > >> >> >> > defending drugs from the argument of absence from pain, or > >> >> >> > abundance > >> >> >> > of pleasure, then what argument do you have? > >> >> >> > So in sum, I disagree with the aims of drug use. (i.e. avoidance of > >> >> >> > pain, excess of pleasure) And even if I agreed with the aims, > >> >> >> > drugs > >> >> >> > don't sufficiently accomplish those aims. They end up doing more > >> >> >> > harm > >> >> >> > than good. > > >> >> >> > On Mar 23, 1:50 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > >> >> >> > wrote: > >> >> >> >> I understand. I thought you were making a judgement of the tribe > >> >> >> >> itself. The New Age movement is particularly American, and for > >> >> >> >> the most part, abstains from the chemical roots of the religions > >> >> >> >> that it borrows many of its philosophies from. It's an > >> >> >> >> interesting contradiction to your accurate observation. > > >> >> >> >> [ Attached Message ]From:Kierkecraig > >> >> >> >> <[email protected]>To:"\"Minds Eye\"" > >> >> >> >> <[email protected]>Date:Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:13:11 -0700 > >> >> >> >> (PDT)Local:Mon, Mar 23 2009 1:13 pmSubject:[Mind's Eye] Re: > >> >> >> >> Speaking of Out of Body Experiences... > > >> >> >> >> Chris, > >> >> >> >> What I meant by perfect fit for modern america is that we are > >> >> >> >> always > >> >> >> >> looking for a quick fix. We Americans don't like to put forth > >> >> >> >> effort. I did not mean that physchodelic drugs are not ancient. > > >> >> >> >> On Mar 22, 9:43 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > Ayahuasca tea, along with the ritual use of amanita muscaria, > >> >> >> >> > is not a > >> >> >> >> > modern american ritual at all. These are South American > >> >> >> >> > immigrants, > >> >> >> >> > Craig. Did you not read the article? This is a religion that has > >> >> >> >> > archaeological evidence dating it at least as old as > >> >> >> >> > Christianity, > >> >> >> >> > perhaps two to three times as old as that. > > >> >> >> >> > Nothing modern at all about the use of psycho-actives. If > >> >> >> >> > anything, > >> >> >> >> > it's a modern idea that you can achieve a "spiritual state" > >> >> >> >> > without > >> >> >> >> > them. > > >> >> >> >> > On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Kierkecraig > >> >> >> >> > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > > Maybe if you aren't willing to put forth the effort, then you > >> >> >> >> > > don't > >> >> >> >> > > deserve the experience. Sounds like these hallucinogens are a > >> >> >> >> > > spiritual experience for the lazy. A perfect fit for modern > >> >> >> >> > > america I > >> >> >> >> > > guess. > > >> >> >> >> > > On Mar 22, 7:10 pm, Chris Jenkins > >> >> >> >> > > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> I would posit that there are few people anymore who practice > >> >> >> >> > >> the rituals to the degree necessary to self manufacture the > >> >> >> >> > >> amounts of DMT necessary to have the "religious experience". > >> >> >> >> > >> Buddhist monks, perhaps, and some extreme branches of > >> >> >> >> > >> Catholicism who still practice flagellation. For the rest of > >> >> >> >> > >> us, a legitimately altered state of reality is not likely to > >> >> >> >> > >> occur without assistance. > > >> >> >> >> > >> [ Attached Message ]From:Slip Disc > >> >> >> >> > >> <[email protected]>To:"\"Minds Eye\"" > >> >> >> >> > >> <[email protected]>Date:Sun, 22 Mar 2009 16:07:12 > >> >> >> >> > >> -0700 (PDT)Local:Sun, Mar 22 2009 5:07 pmSubject:[Mind's > >> >> >> >> > >> Eye] Re: Speaking of Out of Body Experiences... > > >> >> >> >> > >> I guess I'm going to have to take another look at the DMT > >> >> >> >> > >> you tossed > >> >> >> >> > >> at me on another occasion, you see Chris, I didn't forget! > > >> >> >> >> > >> I'm glad that people can have the liberty to practice their > >> >> >> >> > >> faith in > >> >> >> >> > >> the way they see fit without interference from big brother. > > >> >> >> >> > >> The question is, though, why do religions need to use > >> >> >> >> > >> hallucinogens if > >> >> >> >> > >> there is sufficiency in their spiritual beliefs? > > >> >> >> >> > >> Just a thought. > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
