Don, thanks for recognizing that my reference to incest referred to sex between consenting adults. I assumed, like I'm sure most people reading my post did, that sex with children is a different matter - but I should have specified that.
Besides severe social taboos, incest is also, probably, discouraged physiologically. One study tested some animals (I think they might have been cockroaches). The researchers took the scents of siblings, and sprayed an area of the cage with them, and then sprayed a different area of the cage with the scents of unrelated members of the same species. The animals tended to stay away from the part of the cage that had been sprayed with their siblings' scents. This was taken to suggest that one mechanism for avoidance of incest in the animal kingdom (and we would expect that evolutionary pressure created mechanisms to discourage incest, because of the increased possibility of deleterious mutations) is that animals simply find the scents of their close relatives "repulsive" - which keeps them from accidentally getting it on with them. Indeed, I believe I read another study that showed that (human) children tended to find their father's odors unattractive. Don suggests that incest, if not immoral, is "unwise and risky." Of course, the same is true for sex by people with sexually transmitted diseases. But that's what condoms are for, and I'm pretty sure people with STDs still lead active sex lives. Likewise, my presentation of the question of incest had nothing to do with making babies from incestuous unions. It was a question about sex. (It's a similar distinction, in some ways, to the one that answers the argument for the immorality of homosexuality - "We know it's immoral and wrong, because you can't make babies through homosexual sex." A: "But lots of sex that you don't think is wrong has nothing to do with making babies. Therefore, it cannot be that a sexual act is immoral merely because of what could or could not happen from it with respect to procreation.") I would argue that incest is not immoral or objectively disgusting in any way. It's disgusting to 99.9999% of the population, of course (and if anyone was wondering, I don't have any personal interest in incestuous unions nor have I ever known anyone who did; this is a purely theoretical exercise) but that's more a statement about our hormonal and social learnings than the objective moral truth. One interesting literature suggests that most of morality centers around disgust. For example, in cultures where cow is sacred, eating cow is viewed as intensely immoral, and the thought of eating cow brings visceral waves of disgust. The authors of this literature conduct studies and present findings suggesting that most, or all, of peoples' moral leanings can be understood through what people find viscerally repulsive. (Hence the argument for the "immorality" of homosexuality, which most people on this message board understand can be justified extremely weakly through any objective, logical argument, even though a large proportion of the population continues to "feel" and "know" that homosexuality is "disgusting" and "wrong" and hence "immoral"). On Apr 8, 1:34 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > How about the poedophile, who may seduce an unsuspecting mind but may > > > not have actually " forced " sex upon a child ? > > I thought of this also when I saw the word 'incest' used. I quickly > surmised Michael was referring to adults only. Children don't know > what's good for them and that's why we have laws against sex with > children. There aren't a lot of people willing to argue this law > except maybe NAMBLA. As far as I know; incest in general isn't > against he law. It is certainly taboo, as it should be, but not > unlawful. If it's not immoral, it is unwise and risky IMO. > Definitely socially unacceptable in a way that homosexuality clearly > isn't. > > Someone said killing someone is immoral. Not in all cases I would > say. What if the person being killed is the person that molested your > child and just proclaimed their intent to do it again? It would be > almost immoral not to kill the bastard. > > dj > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > How about the poedophile, who may seduce an unsuspecting mind but may > > not have actually " forced " sex upon a child ? > > > On Apr 7, 7:34 pm, Michael Berkovits <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Is morality only what we feel is good for us? Or is there a > > >> > greater good to consider? > > >> Who here thinks that sexual "immorality," like homosexuality or > >> incest, is immoral? I present the point because I think it beyond > >> obvious that neither is, nor is any brand of sexual > >> "immorality" (except for things like forced sex, which is immoral not > >> because it has anything to do with sex but because it has to do with > >> coercion) but obviously many people in this world disagree. > > >> On Apr 7, 10:24 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > I doubt that many people would see loan interest as immoral. Yet you > >> > see it this way because it goes against what you feel is good for > >> > you. Is morality only what we feel is good for us? Or is there a > >> > greater good to consider? > > >> > On Apr 7, 2:55 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > Frayed knot is an interesting way of putting it. > > >> > > I think society is more immoral than moral. I think most people agree > >> > > that > >> > > killing some one is wrong. My problem with morality is when some one > >> > > charges excessive interest like in credit cards (my wife and I have > >> > > one -- > >> > > and it is for emergencies only -- then immediately paid off ) > >> > > justifying > >> > > this as sound business when in reality to me it seems like this greed > >> > > is a > >> > > way of slowly killing some one, or Like ( i do have a very good health > >> > > insurance.) when I ended up in the hospital a few years back in the > >> > > USA and > >> > > the bill exceeded $8,000. for 24 hour stay.. basically to get my > >> > > heart beat > >> > > stabilized and watched. I saw 2 doctors for a total of 10 minutes.. > >> > > If I did not have insurance i would have an huge medical bill and to > >> > > pay it > >> > > I would have had to take food of my table to pay the bill. To me if a > >> > > person > >> > > is forced to pay an excessive amount to cover a bill cutting back on > >> > > normal > >> > > expenses to pay it,, the hospital is killing that person. > > >> > > or by charging excessive rent.. or a myriad of other ways of killing > >> > > some > >> > > one legally .. the slower the better.. > > >> > > On my savings account I am paid a meager 2.6 % but if I want to borrow > >> > > money > >> > > I have to pay 9.8% If I depended upon that interest for my living again > >> > > corporate greed would be killing me.. and this difference is immoral > >> > > yet it > >> > > is easily justified as business. > > >> > > I think people many people only want to appear to be moral yet at the > >> > > same > >> > > time want to use business or corporations to hide their immorality. > > >> > > The only conclusion I can reach is people prefer to be immoral. Just > >> > > talking > >> > > the talk not walking the walk of morality. > > >> > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > Evil reconciled to good? Frayed knot! > > >> > > > On Apr 5, 10:18 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > > Why is evil always so hard to nail down or why does it seem that no > >> > > > > one really wants to identify it but simply dissect the > >> > > > > potentiality of > >> > > > > what it may define. You don't consider anything on the video as > >> > > > > evil > >> > > > > but do recognize it as bad, horrifying and obscene, which basically > >> > > > > covers the face of evil, but rather bypass evil representation to > >> > > > > bring attention to religious aspects, which by the way I agree with > >> > > > > 100%, don't burn your steak here. The dark ages are still upon us > >> > > > > brother and while technology creates a vision of advancement, > >> > > > > attitudes and behaviours create a different picture, the picture of > >> > > > > reality, of good and of evil. I feel we must somehow find resolve > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > the issue of what is evil. We have here a collection of brilliant > >> > > > > minds, myself excluded lol, and so we can somehow be assertive in > >> > > > > our > >> > > > > resolve. I find too many threads wind up as fray ends. Which > >> > > > > reminds > >> > > > > me of a thread that walked into a bar, the bartender said "we don't > >> > > > > serve threads", so the thread walked out, shredded out it's end and > >> > > > > tied itself into a loop, walked back into the bar, the bartender > >> > > > > noticed and immediately and irately said, "damn, I told you we > >> > > > > don't > >> > > > > serve threads in here", the thread responded "I'm not a thread" at > >> > > > > which the bartender scowled, "you are so" and so the thread having > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > last word said "nope, I'm a frayed knot". > > >> > > > > On Apr 5, 12:26 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > > Thanks Slip. I don't really consider what is going on in the > >> > > > > > video > >> > > > > > and what it represents as evil. It is bad, it is horrifying, it > >> > > > > > is > >> > > > > > obscene, but it is also no more than religion battling it's > >> > > > > > fiercest > >> > > > > > foe -- education and enlightenment. On the other hand, religion > >> > > > > > considers education and enlightenment evil -- the work of the > >> > > > > > devil. > > >> > > > > > On Apr 4, 2:05 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > Thanks for the video gruff, it was overwhelmingly sad but very > >> > > > > > > enlightening as to the seriousness and the dilemma of these > >> > > > > > > people. > >> > > > It > >> > > > > > > takes me back over to the other thread, Does Evil Exist. One > >> > > > > > > only > >> > > > > > > needs to watch this video for the answer. > > >> > > > > > > On Apr 4, 3:38 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > > > > Here is a good reason for moral behavior -- call it what you > >> > > > > > > > like > >> > > > (we > >> > > > > > > > are our brother's keeper, the golden rule, do unto others, > >> > > > > > > > etc.) -- > >> > > >http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/02/22/world/asia/1194838044017/cl... > > >> > > -- > >> > > ( > >> > > ) > >> > > I_D Allan- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
