"... On Apr 9, 1:36 pm, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: ..."
> > Again, yes it is my opinion. But are you suggesting that my opinion > > is any less than your own? As regards blaming the victim, I'm not. > > That is your perception of my words which again is your opinion. > > No, I am suggesting that in my professional training and work with > county and state agencies that work strictly with children who have > been sexually abused, this is the case. Since we're tossing credentials about, I'm sorry, Molly, but your professional training and work experience do not make you the end-all, be-all authority on the matter. I have a quarter century work experience in law and a fair amount of expertise in child abuse having worked defense on behalf of a lot of accused abusers -- sexual, physical, emotional and psychological -- as well as a substantial background in social history. I've witnessed and been involved in the questioning and interrogation of children who complained of abuse and in more than a reasonable number of cases and children fabricate stories of abuse of all sorts, but more sexual abuse than any other form. In recent decades there has been a highly permissive attitude and concern regarding and toward children and they have not been unaffected by this overly solicitous affectation. I have also witnessed social workers and psychologists deliberately lead a child into a position of accusing a parent or other adult of heinous behavior that was clearly unwarranted. The news archives are full of such cases. Children are generally self-centered and in many cases take advantage their perceived edge generated by today's overly solicitous and gratuitous attitudes to lord it over their parents, even to the point of the situation being reversed -- i.e., where adults complain of being abused by their children. For an instance, I know of more than a few parents who have been physically assaulted and beaten by their children -- generally daughters abusing their mothers. I personally know of a few mothers who are terrified of their children and given them whatever the children demand. > My suggestion is, you might have a different opinion if you had better > facts. I believe my facts to be at least as substantial as yours and backed up by more credible evidence. > > I'm sorry but you can't know that with any certainty at all outside of > > today's mindset. > > It is basic child psychology and the outreach programs of child > protective services and child abuse intervention are based on it. On what? The DSM-IV? You cannot discount the cases of outright lying, exaggeration and fabrication by children of allegations against adults. What an effective weapon that is to put into the hands of a child who generally has no personal set of social morals or rules. > > I can hear similar screaming and ranting not that long ago > > regarding same-sex relationships, > > Not at all the same as relationships between child and adult. > Children are not yet able to be completely rational. They have not > yet formed their beliefs of trust and authority. They are subject to > the rules and laws of the adult world without question. Not at all > the same as a relationship between two adults of the same sex. That wasn't the comparison I was making. I think you are twisting the issue. I was comparing the outcries of over-zealous do-gooders in the area of same-sex relationships to the same over-zealotry in the area of children. Modern society has placed far too much value on the life of a child to the point where valuable adult life is placed on the line to rescue a child and in some cases even lost trying to rescue a child. A child's life has value, certainly, but not more value than an adult who has garnered years of experience and knowledge. To my thinking there is no way an adult life should be sacrificed for that of a child. That's like sacrificing wisdom for innocence and naivete. Not exactly a fair nor worthy trade, I'd say. > > > A healthy environment provides safety and support for children. > > > Yes it does and that does not preclude a sexual environment (except in > > > today's dysfunctional world.). > > > > A sexual environment for a child? Yes. Children have a sexual aspect and environment which is unfortunately denied in today's over-solicitous world. > > > There is no response by and adult in > > > kind that would not traumatize them further except respectful refusal > > > of sexual interaction and support of the psychological process that > > > brings the child to the moment and perhaps the psychoanalysis that > > > would allow them to move beyond the behavior into a more self > > > respecting frame of mind. > > > > Again, this is but your own opinion. There are many who do not > > believe it to be so. > > I'd be interested to see some reputable sitings. There are plenty available in libraries and on the Internet, but I'm loathe to do that research for a mind that appears to be closed on the subject. Molly, you entered this discussion with a mind that appears very decided and open to nothing new on the subject. So the likelihood of my doing research that you would just disdain and dismiss is slim to none. I have already give you sufficient data if you care to investigate further. > > As a further aside, how do you know that the rejection by 'respectful > > refusal" would not cause the child trauma as well. > > You are being argumentative. The answer is obvious. No, the answer is not obvious and I'm not being any more argumentative than you. > > I think you can't deal with this issue objectively, Molly. > > Then you don't know much about me. I worked with families and > children for the county and state (illinois), as I said, for the first > ten years of my professional life, establishing programs and resources > in schools and local municipalities. I worked directly with many of > these children and parents, and saw first hand the trauma to these > children that took years to heal. You keep bringing up your work experience as a bulwark against any open-mindedness on the issue. I present for your consideration that it was that very work that is clouding your mind to consideration of any differing viewpoints. > > Perhaps > > you suffered some trauma in this area yourself and it is clouding your > > mind. > > Very condescending, gruff. No, I am lucky enough to say that this was > not one of the issues left for me from childhood to sort out in > midlife. Thank you for the offensive remark. I never said it was a traumatic event in your childhood -- though it may well have been so -- but I was primarily referring to your social work with children that has caused a debilitating degree of narrow-mindedness and prejudice on the issue. You are not as considerate and open in this area as you generally are on other subjects and issues. > You have been forthcoming enough in this group so I know you > have some of your own. It would be easy enough for me to wonder if > this is not what clouds your examination of the issue as well. Clouds my examination? I don't think so. I'd have to say my childhood sexual experiences were not traumatizing at all. I enjoyed it far too much for to have been traumatized by it. What did traumatize me was my rejection by my family because of my father's religion, my mother's hysteria, and my continual condemnation by them as being evil because I kept getting caught in sexual situations. The contradiction between my family's sexual behavior, denial of the same, and their condemnation of me for the same acts traumatized me far more than any of the actual sexual acts. In fact I believe my childhood sexual experiences has given me a much broader insight into the issue as an adult. > Children between the ages of 12 and 18 are more sexually > active than ever before, and many consider oral sex not really sex but > a means to popularity. Do you think this may possibly stem from the narrow-minded perspectives of a generation that has some twisted ideals? For instance, that it is better to teach a child to go to war and kill than it is to teach a child to have enjoyable sex? I don't mean to demean your opinions but in this case I believe you are way off base and sufficiently closed-mined to refuse to consider any other possibilities. /e --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
