With regard to Christian scripture, the hermeneutical problems are immense. Given, on the one side, the weight of two thousand years of the development of Christian tradition(s) and history - which is, in certain periods, almost synonymous with western history, and the personal societal inculturation of those of us who come from a backround within this wider Christian tradition; and, on the other hand, the layers of oral transmission, theological systemic development, influence of and contamination by similar and related traditions in the Jewish (Palestinian and Diaspora) world of the 1st. Century C.E., cross-pollenisation with other religious, spiritual and philosophical ideas in a fertile, eclectic, intellectual environment (particularly forms of neo-Platonism), discussion and conflict between different Christian communities, the trauma of the siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in 70 C.E., etc., it is very difficult to speak with any kind of surety about the original teachings of Jesus.
Personally, I am sceptical of any claims to tear away all the veils of interpretation at both ends which separate us from the "historical" Jesus. Even during his life, there seems to have been disputes about what he had actually said, or stood for. In the end, we are faced with a charismatic figure as the nucleus of manifold, multiplying mythologies. Ultimately, it's probably futile to try to "strip away the myth from the man ..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPDXmEsQtQ Francis On 2 Mai, 21:11, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote: > Yea man! > That one statement is pretty much the foundation of the Christian lie. > All the times Jesus said he was a common man and that it was the > persons own faith that healed them is ignored. > > peace & Love > > On May 2, 10:44 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I think that passage is a perfect example of the problems of a human > > translated "holy" text. > > > Heres's the KJV: > > > "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man shall come to the father but > > BY me." > > > Not through, by. That one word is an important distinction, because it > > introduces variance in understanding, and shows the problems of which I > > speak. Change the phrase slightly, and the message falls in line with all > > the rest of what Christ taught: > > > "I show you the way, the truth, the life; no man shall come unto the father > > unless they follow my example." > > > Now given Christ's refusal to be deified, his perpetual redirection of > > prayer and worship to Yahweh, and his oft vocalized mission to teach ("I > > come to show you the way..."), which interpretation makes more sense? > > > Christians espouse the viewpoint that Christianity is exactly that, > > attempting to lead a Christ like life, but the deification of Christ has > > become so entrenched that the two are indistinguishable. > > > Thou shalt have no other Gods before me... > > > [ Attached Message ]From:e_space <[email protected]>To:"\"Minds Eye\"" > > <[email protected]>Date:Sat, 2 May 2009 05:35:15 -0700 > > (PDT)Local:Sat, May 2 2009 8:35 amSubject:[Mind's Eye] Re: The Wrong Way > > > it is not unfortunate at all...it doesnt matter to me what jesus > > said...i dont consider jesus to be god...he said some neat stuff...so > > did other people...but i would NEVER say to someone, 'noone shall come > > to the father but through me'... i find that sorta arrogant, even if > > it was true. > > > i do not associate religion with 'god', i associate it with man where > > it belongs. as far as 'the spirituality of fundamental christianity' > > is concerned, i am not even closely convinced that such an animal > > exists...when u listen to a fundamentalist the last thing that comes > > to mind is spirituality. > > > if my words are capable of turning some off religion then their belief > > isnt very strong...on the other hand, since my negative slant on > > religion is accompanied by my joy of spiritual awareness, i really > > dont think i will be doing that much damage...maybe some good huh? > > > On May 2, 7:52 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I don't envy your up bringing and unfortunately what you experienced is > > > from the lack of knowledge of what Jesus taught and the problem that > > > is > > > inherit to the trinitarian belief system where they make Jesus a God. > > > > I have to laugh E when you say your father never sinned, because in his > > > eyes he probably never did disobey the rules and regulations. But there > > > in > > > lies the problem as I see it "sin" within christianity is what separates > > > us > > > from God .. but now i want you to think about something. It would be a > > > very > > > serious "sin" if your actions or teachings separate someone from God.. > > > very > > > serious indeed . > > > > If I had to survive on the spirituality of fundamentalist christianity I > > > would have either died or wandered away long ago. In one of my > > > experiences > > > years ago it was said "If you think you know it all there is more." That > > > has proven to be very true for me. > > > Allan > > > > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 10:45 AM, e_space <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > i was born the son of a very strict preacher man. my whole life was > > > > spent in church, even home life resembled church with daily bible > > > > reading, prayers, etc. i actually called my father 'god on earth' > > > > because i never saw him do anything that even closely resembled a sin, > > > > other than the harsh treatment we got for doing something wrong, but > > > > that was the english way, spare the rod, spoil the child. > > > > > i saw a lot of hypocritical activity in the church and found no > > > > comfort in the words of the bible. i rebelled. what i learned was that > > > > the 'path' to spiritual experience leads within. everything of any > > > > importance on the spiritual side happened for me just before sleep > > > > with eyes closed. of course, it takes a desire for this communication > > > > and i was constantly putting out the welcome mat for this activity. > > > > > people can look for the 'truth', answers to their religious or > > > > spiritual questions, etc by reading or listening to the words of > > > > others, where they will find nothing of substance from what i have > > > > experienced. i think we all have a spirit, its just a matter of > > > > digging the diamond out of the rough and starting to polish it...just > > > > my opinion here... > > > > > On May 2, 5:04 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Well Saul of tarsus (Paul is not an apostle as in the original sense > > > > > as > > > > > having been with Jesus and knew him before his death. If Saul is an > > > > apostle > > > > > then so am I by the same right and I can assure you that I am not an > > > > > apostle. You are right unfortunately the teachings of christianity are > > > > > heavily based on the writings of Saul. > > > > > > It is sad the distortion of what Jesus had to say, but at least some > > > > > of > > > > it > > > > > has been recorded. Even if it is not accurate and distorted by time > > > > > and > > > > > transulation there comes many ideas that can be put to practical use > > > > > in > > > > > developing some kind of spiritual life. > > > > > > My own view of Jesus (which is evolving) is that he is the Abbot of > > > > > his > > > > > teachings and a small group of followers. widely spread out and often > > > > > unknown to other followers. It is meditation and thought about what I > > > > have > > > > > read that become the guiding principles. > > > > > > It has not been an easy life, but it is one that I am very proud of. > > > > Often > > > > > times I come up against teachings of the past that are difficult to > > > > > understand, yet though I feel that they must be discarded It can not > > > > > be > > > > > done lightly. I know what Rosey is going through as Though I have been > > > > > chasing my beliefs longer than she has been alive. It is very nice to > > > > know > > > > > other are walking the path of searching.. > > > > > > My wife calls and I need to leave. > > > > > Allan > > > > > > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 4:52 AM, Chris Jenkins < > > > > [email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > I've found that most modern Christians draw the vast majority of > > > > > > their > > > > > > ideology from Paul, one of the worst apostles on whom to build a > > > > > > gospel > > > > of > > > > > > love and forgiveness, with a dash of Mosaic Law whenever it suits > > > > > > their > > > > > > political desires. Your approach to Gospel works well enough for me. > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > From: Tinker <[email protected]> > > > > > > To: "\"Minds Eye\"" <[email protected]> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 19:53:21 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: The Wrong Way > > > > > > > I was a stone cold atheist, anti-christian for sure, at a > > > > > > challenging > > > > > > time in my Life, a little new testament found me. It had all the > > > > > > words > > > > > > of Jesus in red. I read those red words over and over till I > > > > > > understood what the man was saying. Christianity ain't got a clue. > > > > > > > peace & love > > > > > > > On May 1, 10:36 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Both JC and Gautama asked that there be no religion based upon > > > > them... > > > > > > > > On May 1, 3:35 pm, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The man Jesus knew we are going the wrong way. He was all about > > > > trying > > > > > > > > to make a change. > > > > > > > > The religions are all basically built on 'good stuff', and > > > > > > > > worked > > > > in > > > > > > > > their circumstance for the purpose of unifying the people. > > > > > > > > I think Christianity is the only religion that actually had any > > > > > > > > devious element in its creation. The people Jesus was most > > > > disgusted > > > > > > > > with were the ones who created the religion that in no way > > > > represents > > > > > > > > the man as he was. > > > > > > > > > peace & Love > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 4:57 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I know it was not directed at me,, and there are a great many > > > > > > christian > > > > > > > > > leaders that are nothing but shysters. That is very sad. > > > > > > > > > Jesus is > > > > a > > > > > > truly > > > > > > > > > great spiritual leader. The only really good part about that > > > > > > > > > is > > > > to > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > shysters I am an absolute burn in hell heretic,, so I can > > > > > > > > > not be > > > > all > > > > > > bad > > > > > > > > > > It is a shame because all faiths have there strong points and > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > believe each > > > > > > > > > person is born into the base of faith they need. You can not > > > > exclude > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > faith of others because is thither the stones from the path of > > > > others > > > > > > that you > > > > > > > > > polish your own spiritual path. > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Tinker <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Allan, that comment was not directed at you, and I don't > > > > > > > > > > think > > > > it > > > > > > fits > > > > > > > > > > you at all. > > > > > > > > > > > I very much agree with your comment on the Christian > > > > > > > > > > leaders. > > > > I'd > > > > > > > > > > venture to say probably half of them are shysters who don't > > > > even > > > > > > > > > > believe in what they're selling. > > > > > > > > > > > peace & Love > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 3:24 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Yes I know I am not very smart, but I was thinking (oops a > > > > very > > ... > > Erfahren Sie mehr » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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