While I sympathise completely with your instinct to call a spade a
spade, Slip, your honest desire to cut through political doublespeak
and your genuine compassion for those whose suffering is not
ameliorated and, indeed, increased by such platitudinous
obfustication, I have problems with your solution in "viewing the
world simply as black and white in order to eliminate the
confusion ..."

We have seen too many revolutionaries - with, initially at least,
honest motivation - take this path in the 19th. and 20th. Centuries.
The results were usually horrific. I'm thinking of people like V.I.
Lenin, or the Baader-Meinhoff gang. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend
any direct comparisons with your thinking. But simplification can
easily distort - leading in the end to simplistic, dualistic thinking.
There are all sorts of levels of interconnectivity in our world, which
makes many problems complex - or perhaps only the practical way to
solutions.

Francis

On 12 Mai, 22:20, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yaya, that is a generality and may pertain to specific instance such
> as you say with a harmonious and chaotic world perspective or the
> color spectrum.  I see homeless people, what do you see, people
> camping?  I see war, what do you see, domestic disturbance?  I see
> people starving, what do you see, people that might not be that
> hungry?  One of the major problems in the world is the sidestepping of
> core issues through a maze of political sophism while societies sores
> fester and spread like the plague.  Politicians spew their rhetoric on
> the soap box in an attempt to placate the masses.  It is time to view
> the world simply as black and white in order to eliminate the
> confusion and get closer to the collective mentality, which we will
> never accomplish if people continue to find loopholes to negate
> reality.  We are experiencing a dissemination of the world via the
> differentiation of views.  With black and white we can identify the
> issues, address the issues, solve the issues and later begin again to
> add colors to our world, if you get my drift.
>
> On May 12, 9:19 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Seeing what is before us is a matter of perspective and belief is one
> > big factor in the shape of what we see.  Two people looking at the
> > same thing do not see the same thing.  Their differences make what
> > they are seeing different to them.  If I see the world as harmonious,
> > and Neil sees it as chaotic, it doesn't mean we are seeing different
> > worlds, it means our perspectives are different based on our beliefs.
>
> > On May 12, 5:32 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > You are right about one belief vs another, and that too is a belief !
> > > <<Vam
> > > It is not a belief it is a fact, all beliefs are beliefs.
>
> > > Clearly any belief to the believer can be the ultimate truth for that
> > > believer, still, overall and in the context of all beliefs, that
> > > belief, like all others remains a belief, the truth portion of which,
> > > is subjective.
>
> > > To effect change one simply needs to see, as you say, what is before
> > > us, later we can engage analysis.  That is one reason why homeless
> > > people are on the street.  Too much time is being spent on the 'why is
> > > this happening'.   The people are there, no home, no food or water,
> > > and what happens?  They fix the banks!
>
> > > On May 11, 11:05 pm, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > There are two observations I wish to contribute, SD, if I may.
>
> > > > You are right about one belief vs another, and that too is a belief !
> > > > And I do not say this tongue in cheek.
>
> > > > But a belief isn't " just " a belief. The ' responsibility ' of
> > > > holding the belief is immediately upon us. So, if I believe the rock
> > > > is spiritual energy, it becomes encumbent that I ' see ' the spiritual
> > > > energy the rock is and ' know ' the truth value of my belief. If I do
> > > > happen to know that my belief is true, then I also know that the
> > > > contrary belief ( the rock is NOT spiritual energy ) is untrue,
> > > > regardless of how many people are holding that contrary belief.
> > > > Therefore, equating one belief to another, forgetting how beliefs are
> > > > ' rooted ' in individuals, seems facile.
>
> > > > Secondly, without the " Why,"  how does one determine what change to
> > > > effect. Which leads to whims. However, I do see the importance of
> > > > action at whatever that is before us, even if what is before us is not
> > > > the " ultimate " we might be looking for.
>
> > > > On May 12, 4:05 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Content is irrelevant, probability is equal in regard to the
> > > > > suppositional base of all religious beliefs.  Without empirical
> > > > > evidence to establish validity of one belief over another the
> > > > > probability remains equal.  Perhaps we can edit out 'ultimate truth'
> > > > > which seems to be the catalyst for the focus on belief content.
> > > > > So I can rephrase in saying "the probability of one belief being valid
> > > > > is equal to that of any other belief".
>
> > > > > You think you are going to dissect commentary and take thoughts out of
> > > > > context in order to challenge them?
> > > > > You cut off "regardless of their existence" which was a reference to
> > > > > "beliefs".
> > > > > Nevertheless if you must.
> > > > > Summarizing suffering into a cause and effect aspect Is another belief
> > > > > Not a fact.  There is not one religion, religious belief, spiritual
> > > > > movement, revered guru or any other "secret" that has alleviated
> > > > > suffering.  So to believe that suffering is a product of a cause and
> > > > > effect event is essentially "another belief".  Maybe I believe that
> > > > > suffering is the result of humanity's failure to achieve a collective
> > > > > mentality, simply another belief.   It isn't even a non sequitor
> > > > > consideration as there is nothing that if following but each belief
> > > > > stands individually. Put the microscope away!
>
> > > > > You don't see how I can believe that the criteria for validity is
> > > > > simply belief.  Well that is not accurate because I don't believe the
> > > > > criteria for validity is simply belief and don't know why you gathered
> > > > > that from my statement, which is........"I just don't see that any
> > > > > belief is any more valid that any other belief, including my own."
> > > > > This is simple truth.  You believe rocks have spiritual energy and I
> > > > > believe rocks  contain good luck and gabby believes rocks make good
> > > > > paper weights, so what makes your belief more valid?
>
> > > > > I say most problems have to to do with unhappiness because that is
> > > > > simple observation Justin, greedy people are unhappy with what they
> > > > > have and so need more, Madoff had millions but obviously he was
> > > > > unhappy with it.  People that are unhappy with their sex life may
> > > > > resort to any deviation to fulfill that void in their happiness
> > > > > pocket. People that are unhappy with their  finances may rob a store
> > > > > or these days kill their family and then themselves. Now you should
> > > > > get out your magnifying glass and look for the unhappiness at the base
> > > > > of problems.
>
> > > > > When I say "bypassing the Why" I purpose to address the here and now,
> > > > > the immediate.  Why waste time wondering about the why of it when we
> > > > > can use that time to effect change.  If we could bypass the why we
> > > > > could facilitate immediate change and the in reflection address the
> > > > > why.
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