Gruff, I can see it is matters of perspective that makes us see things
differently. I'd say it is also a matter of perceptivity.

There is nothing more I can add to what I've already stated.

On Aug 8, 10:49 am, gruff <[email protected]> wrote:
> "... On Aug 7, 7:11 pm, Vamadevananda <[email protected]>
> wrote: ..."
>
> > But that wasn't the point. The point was that the capitalist '
> > environment,' at this point in history, is exacerbating such
> > behaviour, actually causing and bringing out more of it, because that
> > is what it finds expedient and also because of the ' message ' it is
> > sending to the billions who find themselves marginalised and
> > dispossessed, unheard by the powers that be and long muted with their
> > inexorably miserable fate.
>
> I'm sorry, Vam but you sound like Marx when in actuality we are at the
> other end of the spectrum.  Granted, the current capitalist free-
> market crisis is exacerbating the stress on the social fabric.  Crisis
> always does.  Crisis inflames fear which makes people play it closer
> to the vest, tighter, meaner, cruder.  Crisis brings out a few heroes
> but mostly it energizes the instinct for self preservation.  People
> who are at the edge of sociopathic behavior slip over that edge into
> sometimes wanton violence.  Crime in general rises along with all
> other pathologies at all levels of society in times of crisis.
>
> But it is not as bad as some would have us believe.  There are those
> in the world who would rather heighten our state of fear because
> fearful people are easier to control but I think we've grown to the
> point where they are in a minority which is indicated by their
> increasingly desperate attempts at mongering fear.
>
> There's not a voice over twenty in western society which can say they
> are not better off today than at any previous time.  Since 1971 the
> wealth of the developed world has multiplied fivefold.  And now that
> the U.S. has shown the world that free-market capitalism makes
> everybody wealthier, everybody is jumping on the bandwagon.   If you
> think the last twenty five years have been spectacular, wait till you
> see the next quarter century.
>
> > What I am suggesting is this :  If the room is clean from before, I
> > would not litter it.  Indeed, my suggestion is to do the clean up act.
> > In the context, it means bringing ' cooperation ' and ' care ' centre
> > stage, in place of primacy to capital in terms of value and ' power '
> > over the fate of humanity, from here on.
>
> This must be where Francis sees us as being in the same place and I
> think it is where we coincide.  What you describe as cleaning up,
> cooperation and care are part and parcel of those core characteristics
> I think we need to aim at rather than the systems.  I think this same
> concept is embedded in the philosophy of economics from the time of
> Smith.  He named one facet of it as the invisible hand which causes
> the market place to self-correct.  What he didn't count on what the
> capacity for human greed to outrun the market's safety valves.   But
> in any case, I see us as talking about the same things here.
>
> > Mere ' ownership ' of
> > capital, and concern for more and more profit, is no longer an
> > adequate qualification for the tasks ahead !
>
> In my mind it never was, albeit it was the controlling factor for a
> lot of the world.  To me capital and the wealth it creates are but a
> means to achieve success with the tasks ahead.   All an economy is is
> an enabler.  It enables us to indulge, investigate, explore,
> experience everything else.  It enables us to more become what we want
> to be.   In the vernacular of the street, it's the grease to life.
>
> > To restate :  Capital is way overrated, for the future I am speaking
> > of. We should be looking a lot more closely at what it is doing to
> > everyone, not just how it is working for the owner of capital.
>
> Ahh, here again you seem to be blaming capital for something, perhaps
> the ruination of the soul?  I'm not sure but it sounds important.  The
> difficulty is that capital is neutral.  It has no moral or ethical
> nature.   This is in the same sense that guns don't kill people,
> people kill people.  Guns are but the enabler and have no morality but
> what is created by the person holding the weapon or wielding the
> checkbook.
>
> I might say the same thing in another way.  Just as guns are deadly
> for some, wealth or capital is for others.  Some use their power for
> good, some for bad, some for self-protection, some for hedonistic
> purposes, some stupidly.  I think I've said this before in another
> way ... it is human creativity that gives character to most of life
> across a broad spectrum.
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