" My worry is (and I'm not alone here) that the analysis being done and the measures taken are not deep enough - indeed that the neo-libs who have been running the system have just become a bit quieter and are simply letting the communality throw communal wealth at them until, smugly and silently replete, they will announce to us that the system has now been "fixed" and we can return to business as usual - until the next time."
Ah, Fran, do you believe the ( individuals at the helm of the affairs of this ) world will ever wake up to this concern for ' all,' beyond the juke box sounds playing in their minds, prompting them to gain more and more control over the resources of the world, because they have more ' capital ' on their hands, just so they can manipulate more and more for more and more capital for themselves and control over other people's lives ? I see ' capital ' as what it does in the world, and what it could be doing. It goes much much beyond the individual ' owner ' of capital. Which does not take away anything from all the pioneering and enterprising applications of capital the world has seen since renaissance times. What we see today is the same hangover, momentum from the past, that reinforced our feudalistic nature even after it was time - barred by la. It is as if the links between capital and colonialism remain, to perpetuate the same but with a Janus face. It's all so much ' powerful but hugely destructive ' crap the world is saddled with at this point in our history. We now need to bring ' cooperation ' and ' care ' centre stage, in our economics and law and polity, and into the very ' nature ' of individuals. It's a call for a different symphony. I believe we are be capable of that. If only we are ready to change our tunes. On Aug 7, 12:59 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > The great thing about this discussion, Vam and gruff, is that you're > both right :-) > > gruff, with his honest incisiveness, is for looking for root causes, > seeing the bases of what causes things to go awry and trying to > address them. Vam is looking at complex interdependent systems, which > are the basis of the lives of all those billions in our global village > and trying to work with them, tweaking them and changing them so that > people - whom systems are there to serve, and not the other way around > - get more out of them. > > In the end, they both come down to the same (Molly-like :-)) insight - > change yourself and you begin to change the world. > > ... > > While I think it's important not to lose sight of gruff's perspective, > there are a couple of things about Vam's approach that I find > appealing (although I'm not suggesting that I think that gruff would > not share these views). > > The history of the past couple of hundred years teaches that radical, > revolutionary paradigm shifts have involved immense suffering and > millions of deaths. I'm thinking of the course and results of the > bourgeois revolutions (USA and France) at the end of the eighteenth > century and the attempted socialist revolutions (Russia, China, Cold > War) of the twentieth. In fact, much global history from 1789 (1776) > to 1989 can be seen as taking place within the framework of these > phase changes. Given the experience of such massive suffering, there's > a lot to be said for gradualism. Europe suffered (and profited) most > from this experience - it is here that I see the deeper roots of the > ongoing European Common Market/Community/Union experiment in the past > half century or so. Not that I see the EU as being anything like > perfect - it's very much "work in progress." > > The great chance that the crash of 08 gives us is the loss of > credibility of neo-liberal, untrammelled free-market ideologies. The > great idol Free Market (a.k.a. Inviolable Capital), and his acolytes > Consumerism, Maximised Profits and Speculation with their mantra of > Self-Regulating Markets have been shown to have feet of clay. The > consensus seems to be that it is better to try to amend and convert > him, rather than have him come crashing down and destroy millions/ > billions of (relative) innocents in the process. > > My worry is (and I'm not alone here) that the analysis being done and > the measures taken are not deep enough - indeed that the neo-libs who > have been running the system have just become a bit quieter and are > simply letting the communality throw communal wealth at them until, > smugly and silently replete, they will announce to us that the system > has now been "fixed" and we can return to business as usual - until > the next time. As Vam points out - given the growing world population, > our ever-increasing interconnectedness, and the fact that resources > are finite - we really can't afford this sort of stuff any more. > > Francis > > On 6 Aug., 19:11, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > My choice is a very deliberate one, Gruff, just as I believe yours > > would be. > > > It's all about bringing the consequences of what you subscribe to into > > the perspective. I find the inefficiency appalling and, from here on, > > not affordable by humanity at large. That's definitely not limited to > > the US, the West, the developed, or the first world. Most of us here, > > most of the time, would not even be aware of their existence. > > > For one, I feel we are already finding competition in capital intense > > sectors just not ' competitive ' enough, on which benefits ( such as > > in quality and price ) to people rests. I believe resources per capita > > tommorrow are going to be still less to support competition in all > > sectors, across scales of enterprise. My belief is similar to one that > > says : Bad or poor quality is ( just so inefficient way of doing > > things as to be ) unaffordable. The path you are wish to persist with > > is ' bad,' in my assessment, as at this point in our history. > > > Secondly, each time economies are led through ' crisis,' they in my > > opinion lose close to 20 - 40 % of ' effective ' resources to once > > again pick up the thread. Thank god, the economic value of sentiments > > is actually getting to be recognised. Bhutan, one of the poorest > > countries in the world, had shown the way two decades back when it > > defined and measured the well - being of its people in Gross Happiness > > Index / Product. > > > Thirdly, and most importantly, all these inefficiencies and losses get > > ' compensated ' by far from the lot of economically weaker sections of > > the population. The weaker, the more adversly affected. > > > The entire orientation of the system needs changing. I however would > > like to make the most of the structure innovations and democratic > > values natural to capitalist system. But, with socialist goals > > covering the basic food, health and security needs of the people. > > > There is nothing capitalist or socialist about what I belive in. Just > > Pro - People, Pro - Poor. The capitalist system, in itself, as it is > > now, is incapable of orienting itself towards those goals ! > > On Aug 6, 8:37 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Vam, in this you and I are on opposite poles. I believe we are > > > everything and can turn to no other place but ourselves for the root > > > causes of our misbehavior. I agree my thoughts are presumptuous but I > > > wouldn't call yours adolescent. Please offer me the same grace. I do > > > however think that your path, while eventually leading to the same > > > place as mine, is a very roundabout path to get there. And I do > > > agree with systems such as you postulate, but only for short term > > > temporary patches and fixes until we can get to the root causes which > > > have been planted for a long time and go deep so it's going to take > > > some doing to get down to them in many cases, such as is at hand. > > > > On Aug 5, 7:16 am, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Gruff, you ( and I ) are nothing, nobodies, to really be " address > > > > ( ing ) the root causes of humankind's misbehavior." You only have to > > > > attempt with it with one person, anybody, you know. So, I find the > > > > very thought presumptuous, and adolescent like. > > > > > However, we all can and should try, in our own ways, provided we've > > > > succeeded with ourself. I do it not because I have any hopes of > > > > reclaiming some, but because that is how responsible I feel, for > > > > myself. In short, because I cannot help myself from trying to do so > > > > when I am faced with an occassion. Period. I rather consider the > > > > entire characterstic leading to " humankind's misbehavior," the > > > > nature of the cause, like the crookedness in a dog's tail ! > > > > > In the meanwhile, I'd like to go for systems that would work. It would > > > > be of course be more holistic, if we could work on the cause side too. > > > > > On Aug 5, 6:55 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Vam, your exposition is interesting but if I'm reading you correctly, > > > > > you seem to be saying that addressing the effects via a systemic > > > > > methodology is more effective than attempting to address the root > > > > > causes. Is this correct? If so I have to agree. That is akin to > > > > > treating the symptoms of a disease rather than it's core cause. It > > > > > will be a temporary fix at best. > > > > > > That said, however, it seems that your method is the one most often > > > > > chosen by our leaders, movers and shakers to correct the deeper > > > > > problems in our society. But I disagree with the entire concept. > > > > > Treating symptoms is MASH battlefield medicine and does nothing to > > > > > alleviate or cure the root cause. Using your example regarding > > > > > productivity and on-time attendance, if you set up a near perfect > > > > > system to catch the tardy help you might eliminate the tardiness in > > > > > the immediacy of the situation, but it changes nothing in that > > > > > individual who is prone to being late. It does not change their > > > > > attitude, value system, life view, motivation, effects of environment, > > > > > etc. It merely makes them a scofflaw who has been forced to adapt to > > > > > avoid being caught. Any real change would have to have a significant > > > > > effect on that person's inner self to create a higher sense of > > > > > responsibility, self-worth and moral behavior. > > > > > > Seeking and treating the root causes may take longer but it's > > > > > permanent and has a much greater and more positive effect on the > > > > > individual and society as a whole. We cannot continue applying > > > > > patchwork temporary fixes to deeper problems. I find it very > > > > > difficult to accept that we can't address the root causes of > > > > > humankind's misbehavior which is see as the only means of achieving > > > > > the goals we seek. > > > > > > On Aug 3, 10:43 am, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > You know, Gruff, I'll share a case we faced with a huge MNC. It was > > > > > > about productivity which, in short, was about wastage ( pilferage, > > > > > > stealing ) of resources, including time. One specific issue was on - > > > > > > time attendance. Since it involves human beings, everything in our > > > > > > backgound ( within and without ) causally converges on this issue > > > > > > ... > > > > > > our attitude, value system and life view, motivation, effects of > > > > > > environment, our home, inconsistencies within the organisation, our > > > > > > commute and the means, etc. > > > > > > > Clearly, addressing the causes would have been limited and taken a > > > > > > long time for effect. The solution : Define the value and > > > > > > communicate > > > > > > it clearly, including the effects of breach. The repercussions > > > > > > ranged > > > > > > from reward to punishment, promotion to dismissal. All > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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