Gruff, you ( and I ) are nothing, nobodies, to really be " address ( ing ) the root causes of humankind's misbehavior." You only have to attempt with it with one person, anybody, you know. So, I find the very thought presumptuous, and adolescent like.
However, we all can and should try, in our own ways, provided we've succeeded with ourself. I do it not because I have any hopes of reclaiming some, but because that is how responsible I feel, for myself. In short, because I cannot help myself from trying to do so when I am faced with an occassion. Period. I rather consider the entire characterstic leading to " humankind's misbehavior," the nature of the cause, like the crookedness in a dog's tail ! In the meanwhile, I'd like to go for systems that would work. It would be of course be more holistic, if we could work on the cause side too. On Aug 5, 6:55 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > Vam, your exposition is interesting but if I'm reading you correctly, > you seem to be saying that addressing the effects via a systemic > methodology is more effective than attempting to address the root > causes. Is this correct? If so I have to agree. That is akin to > treating the symptoms of a disease rather than it's core cause. It > will be a temporary fix at best. > > That said, however, it seems that your method is the one most often > chosen by our leaders, movers and shakers to correct the deeper > problems in our society. But I disagree with the entire concept. > Treating symptoms is MASH battlefield medicine and does nothing to > alleviate or cure the root cause. Using your example regarding > productivity and on-time attendance, if you set up a near perfect > system to catch the tardy help you might eliminate the tardiness in > the immediacy of the situation, but it changes nothing in that > individual who is prone to being late. It does not change their > attitude, value system, life view, motivation, effects of environment, > etc. It merely makes them a scofflaw who has been forced to adapt to > avoid being caught. Any real change would have to have a significant > effect on that person's inner self to create a higher sense of > responsibility, self-worth and moral behavior. > > Seeking and treating the root causes may take longer but it's > permanent and has a much greater and more positive effect on the > individual and society as a whole. We cannot continue applying > patchwork temporary fixes to deeper problems. I find it very > difficult to accept that we can't address the root causes of > humankind's misbehavior which is see as the only means of achieving > the goals we seek. > > On Aug 3, 10:43 am, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > You know, Gruff, I'll share a case we faced with a huge MNC. It was > > about productivity which, in short, was about wastage ( pilferage, > > stealing ) of resources, including time. One specific issue was on - > > time attendance. Since it involves human beings, everything in our > > backgound ( within and without ) causally converges on this issue ... > > our attitude, value system and life view, motivation, effects of > > environment, our home, inconsistencies within the organisation, our > > commute and the means, etc. > > > Clearly, addressing the causes would have been limited and taken a > > long time for effect. The solution : Define the value and communicate > > it clearly, including the effects of breach. The repercussions ranged > > from reward to punishment, promotion to dismissal. All that was > > required was installation of a transparent and fail - safe system at > > the gate for satisfactory result. > > > The result was not perfect, even though the system was close to > > perfect in transparency and accuracy terms. The man or his nature, his > > philosophy and his fears, were not material, of zilch relevance, so > > long as one passed through the gate at 9 AM or before. If he didn't, > > the system let him ( and others ) know. > > > This is what I am speaking of. If we cannot address the cause(s), we > > can have a transparent and thorough monitoring system to address the > > effect(s). > > > On Aug 3, 10:03 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Chris actually got this round going back on Aug 2, 1:11 pm with his > > > series of one-liners but I'd like to see the both of you in this as > > > well. > > > > Nice summary Francis. Yes, I can see we are both arguing along very > > > similar lines and aiming at the same goal. But I'd like to see you > > > and Chris get into the fray as well. The more voices the more stable > > > and productive the discussion would be. After all, we each know each > > > other well enough to assess each others words fairly well. > > > > /e > > > > On Aug 3, 9:23 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Now this is what I call a discussion, Vam and gruff! (BB47 and > > > > deripsni could both learn from you :-)) > > > > > Maybe it's because the three of us have been around here for a while > > > > that I can really appreciate what both of you are saying, because I > > > > know something about the way the two of you think about a lot of > > > > things. Actually, I see you both arguing along similar lines; Vam has > > > > a professional background in systems analysis and quality management > > > > and has a lot of experience in the practical work of building, using > > > > and changing systems, while keeping his gaze frimly fixed on the goals > > > > (QM as it should be be, but, in my experience, so seldom is); gruff as > > > > someone who sees people/societies trying stuff, getting into messes, > > > > starting over and, somehow, sometimes, getting it a bit more right the > > > > next time (that old 51%/49% optimistic analogy that I often doubt but > > > > always admire). > > > > > So ... I think I'll stay out of this for a while and hope you both > > > > carry on! > > > > > Francis- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
