" I wonder if you are missing the language point - we can't just take 'leadership' as a 'good'. ... at least in our apparent worship of it."
Worship of what ? Leadership ? Indeed, the language, to be " worshiping " leadership ! ? When " Leadership is just an asset, quite as many others, and is just as amenable to abuse and misuse. Again, there are indeed massive powers ranged against the potential for emancipation. It's just that the fact is elementary. What next ? I see leadership as part of the solution, even of the problems it itself causes. We, those who are capable and have the opportunity, need to get to work, despite the deep and pervasive problems all about us. Writing a 50,000 word tome and converting one single individual to this solution providing application of leadership ... both have merit, not more or less ! On Sep 23, 12:32 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > Nothing wrong with what you say Vam. I wonder if you are missing the > language point - we can't just take 'leadership' as a 'good'. I sort > of go with Orn's point on 'thought' in this sense too - at least in > our apparent worship of it. The animal situation is more complex than > not being a product of thought. I would not challenge that animals > have collective decision-making processes, but am inclined towards > thinking this indicates much we believe is the product of our thought > has earlier origins. The rub is in what Francis does above - the > ideas are great and there is a potential for emancipation, yet there > is a massive 'default power' ranged against them. > > On 22 Sep, 19:56, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Why must " leadership " be understood only in the political context ? > > May be, by doing so, we are giving a meaning to leadership that is > > needlessly restrictive. > > > When I think of leadership, I have in view a population with varying > > measures of ability ( or disability, constraints to ability ) to deal > > with looming challenges and tasks, opportunities and threats ... to > > take steps in the dark, in uncharted areas, in non - being ... in an > > attemp to deliver on what is required, illuminate the terrain, chart > > the paths forward, reveal the being. > > > This will always be provided by individuals or groups, who 'd ' climb > > the Everest ' because it is there. The population could happily > > follow. > > > I would say we require such leadership everywhere ... in science, > > philosophy, society, economy and business, politics and law ... > > everywhere. > > > And quite as everything with us, leaderships are prone to be corrupt, > > subject to greed and ' attaining their levels of incompetence.' > > > This calls for more leadership capabilities amongst us, not less, to > > continuously replace the old. And, technology supported systems in > > place to constantly monitor and control with a parliament and an > > independent judiciary, vibrant media, right to information and > > vigilance mechanisms, to effectively deal with deviants. > > > From what I see, it would take us ( in India ) decades before the > > system and individuals evolve to the possibility more ideal leadership > > outcomes. > > > But that, that we are not yet evolved enough to deliver better than > > what we are doing today, is no reason for us to devalue leadership > > itself ! > > > As a pure asset, leadership is irreplaceable. If I had my way, I'd > > multiply it many maniy fold, everywhere ... democratise it, so it > > does not remain priviledged and actually be less exceptional or rare > > than it is today. > > > On Sep 22, 10:58 pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > There are fascinating and exciting ideas in the concepts of > > > deliberative democracy/deliberative polling. Of course they blow our > > > conventional models of power and leadership apart. The second major > > > problem is that they make the party systems in our parliamentary > > > democratic systems obsolete. And that's an area where so many vested > > > interests are dug in so deep that, even if an inspired "leader" might > > > be tempted to push ideas coming form the "deliberative" corner, I > > > think he/she would be quickly and efficiently shafted by the behind- > > > the-scene power-brokers in the (pc-dominated, therefore no longer > > > smoke-filled) back-rooms. > > > > The rumbustious old Bavarian politician, Franz-Josef Strauss, once > > > described a particular definitional comparison from the positive to > > > the superlative as going: > > > > enemy ... deadly enemy ... party colleague > > > > Francis > > > > On 22 Sep., 18:55, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I think the history of leadership shows it is pathologically abhorrent > > > > face Vam - but most terms are noble and ignoble. Even when we all > > > > think current leadership is bad we can only (if lucky enough) vote in > > > > another one. This is a great survival context for leadership, if not > > > > for us. George Gallop thought his opinion polls would greatly > > > > strengthen democracy, but leadership has rather usurped them. We have > > > > the technology for more deliberative polling (I have an academic paper > > > > should anyone be interested) and have had a few experiments. The key > > > > to living with more of the noble face of leadership starts in more > > > > communication of opinion and removing one of the ignoble sides - that > > > > of promoting false opinion and propaganda. Deliberative Polling is > > > > just one idea - we could also move towards much more localised > > > > accounting within a system developed from it. All cultural systems of > > > > leadership I've seen rely on some kind of control of the leadership. > > > > I suspect now that leadership is everywhere it isn't needed, > > > > controlling us, broadly as an unfriendly parasite. We need decision- > > > > making in our hands, but even something as obvious as this comes with > > > > the knowledge the wrong form of this just slows everything to a > > > > trickle as most people can't see beyond their own immediate > > > > interests. We need to recognise the Doublespeak of easy sloganising > > > > in a path to demystifying social cohesion. I believe the spreadsheet > > > > could come to our aid here - as an example of technology enabling > > > > decisions in a deliberative context. I must say, old friend, that > > > > once I discovered what 'adult talk' to be, I have had little time for > > > > it! > > > > > On 22 Sep, 16:35, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > " The leadership meme seems to support itself well in survival and we > > > > > are not addressing this well in our discourse." > > > > > > This seeming support for leadership in your view is a stranger for me > > > > > here, Neil, considering how pathologically abhorrent an idea you have > > > > > consistently presented it as in your posts here in past. What > > > > > happened, in this late age ? > > > > > > No, this is a genuine surprise I express. Especially since a ' > > > > > collective ' leadership is largely theoretical ... yes, Athens like ! > > > > > > This is adult talk I am attempting. It seldom happens. So if doesn't > > > > > now, I wouldn't be surprised ! > > > > > > On Sep 22, 6:27 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Workers of the world were supposed to unite - sadly the employers > > > > > > did! On greed (somewhat tangentially), we are discovering links > > > > > > between emotions and how we come to 'define terms' in our arguments. > > > > > > Disgust has had a lot of attention in links to morality. Greed > > > > > > would > > > > > > seem to have some moderated use in putting things away for a rainy > > > > > > day. In terms of it leaving the hearts of 'people' (no doubt an > > > > > > unwanted PC point over Orn here!) I go for a democratic technology. > > > > > > Like Don I don't fear other peoples, though I'd move from dictators > > > > > > to > > > > > > 'hierarchies' - these (including ours) are now often 'false > > > > > > democracies'. For me, the answers lie in technology - though this > > > > > > cannot be the 'heartless form'. The leadership meme seems to > > > > > > support > > > > > > itself well in survival and we are not addressing this well in our > > > > > > discourse. > > > > > > > On 22 Sep, 08:41, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > “…Anyone notice certain harmonies in this stuff and the reaction > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Obama's modest national health plans? …” - archy > > > > > > > > Yes, much of the same revision of history along with using > > > > > > > propaganda > > > > > > > (lies) and fear tactics by those with power. Unfortunately, the > > > > > > > ‘rest > > > > > > > of the story’ includes: > > > > > > > > “…The Marian propagandists appealed to a yearning for peace and > > > > > > > stability. But a whole generation had grown up since Henry’s break > > > > > > > with Rome, and much of the Marian effort surely represents the > > > > > > > unseemly spectacle of men trying to catch the genie of free > > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > and put it back in the bottle. Protestantism, certainly, was a > > > > > > > minority faith, but though the numbers who stood up to witness > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > be counted, it was less easy to anticipate or evaluate the > > > > > > > undercurrent of strong feeling that showed itself on the execution > > > > > > > grounds. The advisers of Philip of Spain, Mary’s husband, grew > > > > > > > nervous; it was possible that public opinion would blame Philip’s > > > > > > > influence for the burnings, so perhaps, on pragmatic grounds, the > > > > > > > executions should be suspended, or held in secret? The imperial > > > > > > > ambassador told Philip that at the burning of John Rogers at > > > > > > > Smithfield in February 1555, ‘some of the onlookers wept, others > > > > > > > prayed to God to give him strength, perseverance and patience to > > > > > > > bear > > > > > > > the pain and not to recant, others gathered the ashes and bones > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > wrapped them up in paper to preserve them, yet others threatening > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > bishops.’ The ambassador was afraid of popular revolt. It did not > > > > > > > happen, and there was, Duffy says, no loss of nerve on the part of > > > > > > > bishops, queen or the cardinal-archbishop. The regime had > > > > > > > succeeded > > > > > > > with its chosen weapons of teaching, preaching and burning alive, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > by 1557 very few held out; most of the intransigents had gone into > > > > > > > exile or knuckled under. The parish constable of St Bride’s, Fleet > > > > > > > Street, once a strongly evangelical area, assured the authorities > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > ‘if you say the Crowe is white, I will say so too.’…” > > > > > > > > There followed a flu epidemic that took out the powerful and > > > > > > > elite… > > > > > > > and, as condemning as it may be, I pray for a similar result in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Colonies. Perhaps the fanatics > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
