" There are no ideas about ... "

That seems to be a very blinkered view. May be you should be looking
elsewhere. There are people better than us, Neil, who can show the way
forward to us !

But the point is : Do I have the idea, one that is substantial and
overpoweringly clear ?  Am I willing to be guided by that clarity,
even if the whole universe does not see any value in it ?

On Oct 25, 4:46 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
> They are the kind of party that you can't really agree with Vam, but
> they are also difficult to dismiss if you try to be open and fair.
> Chomsky has tried to debate with them and their ilk and I have allowed
> the voice in some classes, though most who get to university believe
> them to be rotten.  The interesting thing is that the constituency
> they claim is not represented by anyone else.  Politics is not about
> leadership and should not be.  A charismatic fascist might make it
> here and there is a reaction against multiculturalism for one to take
> up old gauntlets.  There is no one sensible to vote for.  There are no
> ideas about and politics is driven by false issues such as crime as
> though the only answers lie in punishment rather than in changing
> society.  Griffin is useless and yet having an effect - god help us if
> someone like Blair turns up with his intent!
>
> On 24 Oct, 17:15, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I know it is an extreme right wing party, parochially obsessed with a
> > past and overwhelmed with a fear for the future. We have a few here in
> > India.
>
> > History tells me they have a life span of 20 odd years. I rejoice that
> > most of us on this planet are liberal, pro - freedom, though victims
> > of the same propensity for excess and dullness. We are trying to
> > institutionalise the balance in our life. The constitution is a good
> > tool for guiding ourselves. But the journey is just about 100 years
> > old. It has taken us that long to make fun of patriotism publicly. The
> > crisis - ridden bumps on the way have left us poorer, perhaps weaker,
> > but more aware and hence more committed.
>
> > The business world acknowledges the economic value of sentiments, and
> > not just in consumeristic sense, but it has not been very good at
> > sharing technologies, establishing good governance processes and
> > systems, monitoring, reviewing and improving. And politics still
> > yields a visionary, a driven statesman or a competent leader, only
> > once in an unpredictable while.
>
> > In other words, perfection remains an idea. We can choose to let the
> > idea drive and direct our life and energies, or not. Let the future be
> > of our choosing.
>
> > On Oct 24, 1:36 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Do you know what the BNP is Vam?
>
> > > On 24 Oct, 06:21, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > " ...  we haven't done anything other than make matters worse ... "
>
> > > > This refrain in your sentiments is noticeable, Neil, ever since I've
> > > > read your first post on this forum. How about joining the BNP and
> > > > actually doing something about the mess, to be true to yourself ?
>
> > > > Or, could you critically analyse your sentiments and redress it within
> > > > yourself ?  Especially since history is marching right in front of
> > > > your eye, like an avalanche, and your discomforts and " serious "
> > > > reservations mean nothing for the future !  In which case, dump your
> > > > sentiments and join in the flow. There might be a lot of goodness,
> > > > happiness and freedom in that.
>
> > > > Yes, you may continue to feel as you do now, and spread your
> > > > bitterness and timid disagreements all about you.
>
> > > > Perhaps, there are more choice if you were to go looking.
>
> > > > On Oct 24, 6:11 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Have to agree with that Francis.  Our eldest daughter is leftie and
> > > > > hated living in London (Hackney), saying many black and Asian people
> > > > > made her feel really uncomfortable, especially Town Hall staff and
> > > > > 'street blacks'.  I tend to agree and my experience there is 20 years
> > > > > old.  Griffin hits a chord on this and it sickens me we haven't done
> > > > > anything other than make matters worse since Powell.  The lack of
> > > > > proper mainstream argument is sickening.  If this is affecting even
> > > > > people like us it's really serious.  Polls over the last days show
> > > > > huge support in principle amongst many who would have no truck with
> > > > > the BNP or even UKIP.  It doesn't help to have idiots like Dianne
> > > > > Abbott (Labour Hackney - kids at public school) telling us everything
> > > > > is hunky-dory in multicultural London and it's only up North where
> > > > > there is effective segregation where there are problems.  The lying
> > > > > going on is now routine.
> > > > > Ian pointed out long ago that Labour has got itself into a mess with
> > > > > Islam, but it has also lost any grip on what it used to stand for.
> > > > > When Tories start to look preferable to me, something dire has
> > > > > happened and I have to say I think Labour is now Stalinist in its
> > > > > responses to criticism (and also Bushist).  I've tended to regard
> > > > > German politics as a bit more civilised, but I thought that of France
> > > > > before worked there.
>
> > > > > On 23 Oct, 17:51, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I've been reading some of the press reports on Griffin on "Question
> > > > > > Time" - I just don't have the stomach to watch the thing on-line.
>
> > > > > > The best recruiting sergeants for Griffin, his BNP whackos and other
> > > > > > assorted fascoid loonies are the established parties - not just in
> > > > > > Britain. They have succeeded in destroying any credibility and 
> > > > > > belief
> > > > > > in their sincerity and integrity among western populations in 
> > > > > > general.
> > > > > > No wonder that little people, who feel hurt, betrayed and 
> > > > > > hard-done-by
> > > > > > by the political elites, become cannon-fodder for such simplistic,
> > > > > > hate-mongering bastards.
>
> > > > > > Francis
>
> > > > > > On 23 Okt., 13:28, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > It's a given that the BBC milked all of the publicity for their 
> > > > > > > own
> > > > > > > ends, *shrug* I don't mind that so much, it's great that he was 
> > > > > > > given
> > > > > > > some TV time, I would expect no less in a democracy.  I realy 
> > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > even care if he garners more support, on the whole I still think 
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > he is in a tiny, little, wheeny minority.
>
> > > > > > > Things do seem to be differant down here in London town Neil, 
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > are soooo many people from all over the globe here that
> > > > > > > multiculturalism is second nature to us.
>
> > > > > > > On 22 Oct, 21:53, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > I'm an over-tolerant man as you know Lee.  I've actually been 
> > > > > > > > rather
> > > > > > > > impressed by whatever-his-name is.  I don't hit the pubs as 
> > > > > > > > often
> > > > > > > > these days and it had been a few months when Peter and I met up 
> > > > > > > > in our
> > > > > > > > 'local'.  He noticed a distinct swing to the right in the
> > > > > > > > conversation.  I had a couple more in another after he went 
> > > > > > > > home and
> > > > > > > > found a bunch of skinheads playing punk.  The old jokes are 
> > > > > > > > back in
> > > > > > > > fashion and some are openly saying they will vote BNP.  Not 
> > > > > > > > been down
> > > > > > > > South for some time - is the experience replicated your way?
> > > > > > > > What strikes me is that even I think the BNP, EDL, UKIP line 
> > > > > > > > makes
> > > > > > > > more sense of what people tell me they are worried about than 
> > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > truly dead 'official politics' and media punditry.  The only 
> > > > > > > > possible
> > > > > > > > ways to vote for me are Liberal and Green, but they aren't 
> > > > > > > > talking
> > > > > > > > about the pain being suffered.
> > > > > > > > It can't be right to silence the BNP in a democracy, but I 
> > > > > > > > suspect
> > > > > > > > they are not the real problem - this is much more to do with 
> > > > > > > > why no
> > > > > > > > one is articulating people's real fears and genuine solutions 
> > > > > > > > to the
> > > > > > > > mess we are in.  I want to listen to the BNP and whatever 
> > > > > > > > effect they
> > > > > > > > are having on people.  Quite what I'd do if large numbers start 
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > vote for them is another matter.  If they are genuine democrats 
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > would not abandon the ballot if in power, I think I would have 
> > > > > > > > to put
> > > > > > > > up with them as government.  This might be a pigs might fly 
> > > > > > > > argument,
> > > > > > > > but we are already not democratic in so many ways.  This may be 
> > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > fascism is gaining ground.
> > > > > > > > The answer to Pigsly is surely not to character assassinate him 
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > advance.  I dislike the BBCs use of him as advertising material 
> > > > > > > > too.
> > > > > > > > I think he will cope rather well, perhaps as we might shine in a
> > > > > > > > cricket match of the blind.  Labour and the Tories have been 
> > > > > > > > using
> > > > > > > > Goebels-like tactics for a long time.  If he does manage to 
> > > > > > > > articulate
> > > > > > > > his constituency without being racist-sexist-thuggish, he may
> > > > > > > > embarrass the business as usual types Question Time usually 
> > > > > > > > gives
> > > > > > > > floor-space to. I see none of them talking about the real lives 
> > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > me.  This is not to wish him well.
>
> > > > > > > > On 22 Oct, 10:24, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > So the big question for today is who is going to be watching 
> > > > > > > > > Question
> > > > > > > > > Time this evening?
>
> > > > > > > > > Yep, me, I already have beer in and soft stuff piled up next 
> > > > > > > > > to my
> > > > > > > > > chair(ready for throwing at the TV), I have warned the family 
> > > > > > > > > I may ge
> > > > > > > > > a little more shouty at the box than normal.
>
> > > > > > > > > Man I hope the little fucker gets pieces ripped out of him, 
> > > > > > > > > ahhhh but
> > > > > > > > > then I'm not really a violent man.......but still.
>
> > > > > > > > > I think it should be not only great TV (damn I'm sounding 
> > > > > > > > > like sombody
> > > > > > > > > who has spent too long in the industry now), but hopefully 
> > > > > > > > > will show
> > > > > > > > > the BNP for exactly what they are.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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