Addendum: I do not, of course, want to downplay the very real neurobiological vector involved in depression in all this. The balance of neurotransmitters, like serotonin, dopamin, noradrenalin, acetylcholin, et al. is very real, complex and important and (if one has a predisposition [probably genetically determined] to have the normal limits switch to a "tilt"-setting - something which can be accentuated by negative experiences [negative feedback-loop]) then medication can certainly help and should definitely be availed of.
Francis On 17 Jan., 14:03, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > Please stick around, Twirlip - in my view your posts have definitely > enhanced the group since you've been here. > > I'm going to get a bit personal. From what you've posted, I assume we > have common Irish origins, even if from opposite sides of the border > and I'm seriously delighted to have another paddy here (even if he/she > might be from the group who migrated to Scotland over a thousand years > ago and then returned to the aul sod around four hundred years > ago :-)). Celts wahey! > > I see other parallels too. Like you, I've had more than a nodding > acquaintance with what Churchill called the "black dog" of depression. > In my case, it - coupled with a major alcohol dependency problem - led > to a fairly spectacular meltdown in my life around a decade ago, with > most of the accompanying whistles and bells; marital breakdown, career > catastrophe, suicide attempt, institutional therapy, etc. There are > others here who can also tell similar stories. > > There are many ways out of the pit. In fact, a major danger of > depression is its tendency to lead to tunnel vision, to tune out most > of the large variety of alternatives we are continually offered in our > life and actions, to focus on (falsely) stark either/or choices. The > step from there to; it's all useless anyway, so, fuck it, I might as > well just put an end to it all, becomes, then, a very small one. > > In fact, of course, we always start from where we are and every step > we take opens a rainbow of potential futures for us. And there are > stages where we need to take stock, look more deeply at ourselves and > face (often uncomfortable) truths. There are also stages where we do > not need to do this - give up obsessing with ourselves and get on with > living. It's another version of the old alcoholics' prayer [originally > by Niebuhr] about serenity, courage and the wisdom to know the > difference. For me, an important realisation on the way to a better > life was that the depression/hopelessness I was suffering from was (to > a large extent) the result of the (inevitable) shadows cast by other > attributes I have (like sensitivity, or a deep unwillingness to hurt > others, for example), which I then decided I did NOT want to be rid > of. My experience has ben that it is futile to try to "fight" > depression, rather - to use a language and way of thinking which Molly > has used here - one must "embrace one's own shadow side", accept it, > see it as part of oneself, integrate it and go on growing and > developing. > > In the course of all this, I gave up/lost the vestiges of religion/ > faith, which had had such a major influence in an earlier phase of my > life. This development has been, in my experience, liberating and > today I would describe myself as a generally contented atheistically- > inclined agnostic (not bad for a former Catholic priest!). Like Vam, I > find a lot that is very useful in the thinking of Camus, particularly > in ideas like the hinged themes of freedom-responsibility. That we > create our own meaning is something I see as wonderfully liberating, > and the insights of meaning that we create - individually and > collectively - are worth working and striving for. They give us a > ground for judgement; all the better for the fact that we are aware > that our positions are tentative, subject to growth and correction > and, occasionally even to complete change in the face of new > experience and evidence. And so, Sisyphus becomes for me a symbol of > hope - we keep on pushing that fecking rock up the hill because the > rock is there, the hill is there ... and, as humans, that's what we > do ... > > Francis > > On 17 Jan., 12:06, Twirlip <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Camus > > > 'In an interview in 1945, Camus rejected any ideological associations: > > "No, I am not an existentialist. Sartre and I are always surprised to > > see our names linked..."' > > > Oops! Sorry, Camus, old chap! > > > He seems very political and sexual, too things I find hard to > > understand. (I feel scarcely human.) > > > I forgot, I read /The Myth of Sisyphus/ (also in translation) as > > well. It also said nothing to me, even though I can pretty much agree > > with its (rhetorically overstated) opening sentence, "There is but one > > truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide" (which for > > me is scarcely an overstatement). > > > "Camus's first significant contribution to philosophy was his idea of > > the absurd, the result of our desire for clarity and meaning within a > > world and condition that offers neither [...]" > > > I've never got this. I'm only too well aware of how utterly absurd > > almost everything is, but that does not seem to me to be a natural or > > inevitable condition of things. (So, perhaps I should read /The Fall/? > > Well, we'll get to that. I have a vague feeling I might even have > > read it once, a long time ago ... no, don't think so.) > > > I see humanity as having a future, and the present age as just being > > another rather dark primitive period. Things will get clearer, very > > slowly (too slowly to be of much help to me, I fear). > > > On the other hand, I see the human mind as being very limited, perhaps > > for all time, and we are probably very low in the scheme of things. > > That might perhaps be loosely and distantly related to what Camus is > > getting at, but for me it is associated with vaguely paranormal and > > religious intuitions. Anyway, I don't see why we can't live within our > > limitations, and make what sense we can of things, which is surely a > > very great deal more sense than most people make of things at the > > moment. I'm not pessimistic, in this sense (although I am more > > pessimistic than those who believe that science can or even does > > explain everything). > > > "His main aim was to express the positive side of surrealism and > > existentialism, rejecting the negativity and the nihilism of André > > Breton and Jean-Paul Sartre." > > > Well, that sounds promising, I must say. (But I fail to see whatever > > he saw that was positive.) > > > The section of the Wikipedia article about /The State of Siege/ seems > > badly written, or perhaps I'm just not awake yet. At any rate, I > > don't understand it, although the plot of the play, and its > > relationship with /1984/, sound quite interesting. > > > "Kierkegaard explains that the absurdity of certain religious truths > > prevent us from reaching God rationally" > > > That makes a little bit more sense to me. > > > "ultimately our endeavours are meaningless" > > > Well, I disagree. My life is more fucked-up than I can describe, but > > (as with the general condition of society) I don't see this as a > > natural condition, and it is not meaningless to try to un-fuck-up my > > life! > > > 'What still had meaning for Camus is that despite humans being > > subjects in an indifferent and "absurd" universe, in which meaning is > > challenged by the fact that we all die, meaning can be created, > > however provisionally and unstably, by our own decisions and > > interpretations.' > > > I definitely have a more theological response than this. (My response > > might well be of the "nondual" kind that Molly has pointed me to, but > > it must also pretty definitely have a Western twist to it, even if not > > a specifically Christian flavour - it has taken me a long time to even > > begin to see any sense at all in Christianity. I stumbled into > > Meister Eckhart the other day: he seems appealing.) > > > Also, in a mad (absurd?) way, I used to cling to pure mathematics as a > > kind of salvation, and even now, I still think that something of the > > mathematician's way of thinking is going to help me to get out of this > > mess I'm in. > > > "Camus' well-known falling out with Sartre is linked to this > > opposition to totalitarianism. Camus detected a reflexive > > totalitarianism in the mass politics espoused by Sartre in the name of > > radical Marxism." > > > I'm pretty sure I'd be on Camus's side there. I don't personally like > > Sartre, although I have to learn something from him. > > > "Meursault's inability to lie cannot seamlessly integrate him within > > society and in turn threatens the simple fabrics of human mannerisms > > expected of a structurally ordered society." > > > Well, that's me, all right! I've always been a fish out of water. Is > > there water? > > > "society incapable of realizing his seemingly inhumane and > > misanthropic behavior." > > > Yep, that's me, all right (at least in one interpretation of the words > > - in a more obvious interpretation, I'm neither inhumane nor > > misanthropic) > > > "Ultimately, the plague enables people to understand that their > > individual suffering is meaningless" > > > Oh, great! That's exactly the state of suicidal depression that I'm > > trying to get away from. Seeing my suffering as meaningful is almost > > my only hope. > > > "Camus' belief was that political and religious authorities try to > > confuse us with over-complicated moral systems to make things appear > > more complex than they really are, potentially to serve their own > > needs." > > > How does that fit with "the Absurd"? In what sense did Camus believe > > that things are "simple"? > > > I think perhaps he was struggling against religion, in part because of > > the (horrible) form which religion assumes, in the Judaeo-Christian > > tradition (which I myself find unspeakably alienating). > > > I don't like football, either. :-). > > > OK, I might give /The Fall/ a chance, although I'm not promising to do > > so.
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