On 18 Jan, 16:29, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
> What's the statute of limitations Pat?
>

For abject vandalism that, as far as I know, no one reported (until
now), probably 7 years.  Which would make me about 27 years clear of
that.  Besides, I was a minor at the time (probably 13/14).  Why on
Earth would anyone waste time and money on THAT?  And I can't think
that England would extradite me to the States for such a thing.  No, I
think it's safe to go into the memoirs as 'a stupid kid thing'.

> On 18 Jan, 15:28, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 18 Jan, 13:56, Justintruth <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > I remember whipping up some gunpowder and stuffing it in a metal pipe
> > > to make a "flare". (Un)fortunately it was raining the day of haloween
> > > when I tried to light it, the matches I had wouldn't strike, and I
> > > chucked it so as not to miss the candy!
>
> > That reminds me of the time that a friend and I filled an empty CO2
> > cartridge with gunpowder (taken from dismantling shotgun shells!!),
> > stuck a fuse through the hole in the cap and crimped the cap back down
> > onto the cartridge.  We lit it, tossed it into a mailbox and BLAM!  It
> > sounded like a cannon had gone off.  And it blew a hole in the side of
> > the mailbox about 5 inches across.  Boy did we run...fast!!!  ;-)
>
> > > I also remember turning a step down transformer around in a circuit (I
> > > thought the problem with it was there "wasn't enough electricity" and
> > > I thought using the tranformer in step up configuration would fix the
> > > problem by "increasing the amount of electricity" - I really knew what
> > > I was doing (NOT)).
>
> > > Anyway. They were the good ole days. Glad and mystified that I
> > > survived them.
>
> > > On Jan 14, 5:56 pm, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On 14 Jan, 15:59, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Don, I even took the golden fiddle with me as a peace offering!
>
> > > > > I take the same view Orn, perhaps from a Quaker perspective.  In fact,
> > > > > if I was of draftable age, I might well become a Plymouth Bretheren
> > > > > member.  Jared Diamond has put the same view in 'Collapse'.  I don't
> > > > > really believe we can do anything "active" on bringing about (or
> > > > > letting come about) sustainable communities until we get to a proper
> > > > > understanding of the vile state of politics throughout history.  That
> > > > > we have no real history ready-to-hand all over the world is surely the
> > > > > most damning evidence of conspiracy.  Water supply in parts of Peru
> > > > > strikes me as a classic.  They had technology (admittedly religious
> > > > > cult power related) thousands of years back better than now.
>
> > > > > I suppose one the the words we use as though we know what it is with
> > > > > almost no clue is "evidence".  I can think here of gel-coated slides
> > > > > stuck in an electro-chemical experiment that come out with a few
> > > > > 'scratches' on them - "evidence of cold-fusion" - yet surely not to
> > > > > the untrained, ignorant eye.  But I can also think of mad examples
> > > > > from our legal systems, where "experts" convince judges, defence
> > > > > barristers and juries not to trust the evidence of their eyes in
> > > > > looking at CCTV footage, where, in the end, the whole performance was
> > > > > about suppressing the real evidence and the truth is really about mad
> > > > > human behaviour in authority situations.
>
> > > > > I can imagine a few of us in here on the Nico Bento jury.  Let's say
> > > > > me, you, Fidd, Molly, Gabby, Ian, Chris, Don (add others to taste).
> > > > > Apparently quite a diverse group as we often disagree and even 'fall
> > > > > out', though probably not so diverse when one considers the whole
> > > > > population.  It seems impossible to believe we would have convicted
> > > > > the fellow because we would have scrutinized the "evidence" (however
> > > > > much we might worry about the term's epistemological status) and, one
> > > > > hopes, asked relevant questions.  Could we have been hornswaggled and
> > > > > kow-towed by the now known to be loony "expert" telling us not to
> > > > > believe the evidence of our eyes in relevant CCTV footage?  I suspect
> > > > > the presence of any one of us on the jury would have prevented the
> > > > > conviction, even by majority verdict.  We know enough.  Yet the
> > > > > British system did find 12 'men good and true' to convict a man of
> > > > > murder with no evidence there was one, and plenty to suggest the
> > > > > accused was telling the truth.  I guess too, on the inside of the
> > > > > later cold-fusion experiments we could learn enough to conclude (a
> > > > > long way down the line from the Fleischman-Pons flim-flam), there is
> > > > > enough evidence to continue investigation, at least to provide a
> > > > > better understanding of electro-chemistry.
>
> > > > > Your assertions, Bill, on the 'dogma of evidence' could be seen as
> > > > > rather tired, or as another example of the religious denial of
> > > > > evidence in favour of faith.  I find them neither.  Your reference to
> > > > > Alan Wallace (say) is an exciting possibility, as is the existence of
> > > > > your general view across the board whilst 'leaving in' spiritual
> > > > > possibilities, strongly held, but not dogmatically imposed.  There no
> > > > > doubt remain questions, down to whether non-dogmatism could itself be
> > > > > dogmatic (as in fatuous undecidable deconstruction taken strongly
> > > > > rather than as a weak version).  I doubt Nico Bento would have cared
> > > > > if one of us had been able to stand up for justice for him.
>
> > > > > I often wonder whether one can do science at all without passion from
> > > > > at least quasi-religious experience, other than the cook-book-
> > > > > engineering form (my slap-in-the-face with a wet fish 'realism').  I
> > > > > can make gunpowder (and worse) because I can 'destructibly distill
> > > > > wood' (charcoal), buy flowers of sulphur (or make it from photographic
> > > > > chemicals and lemon juice) and turn urine into potassium nitrate with
> > > > > some burned sea-weed, use a pestle and mortar, dissolve the lot and
> > > > > dry it out.  This is no more 'science' than baking a cake (indeed such
> > > > > skills are involved).  I can throw numbers into equations ('string
> > > > > theory' - though my expertise is in stoichiometry) and wonder whether
> > > > > experimental discovery of one-way speeds of light might return us to
> > > > > Galilean relativism more powerful than Einstein's.  I favour space
> > > > > exploration, both up and down.
>
> > > > That reminds me of the time a friend of mine and I (at about age
> > > > 16-17) decided to make some home-made ether.  I had some pure sulpher
> > > > from an old chemisty set.  We mixed that with some cigarette ashes
> > > > (for carbon, as a catalyst, so that, when we burned it, we got sulpher
> > > > trioxide rather than sulpher dioxide, which we WOULD have gotten had
> > > > we burned the sulpher without the carbon), burned it, captured the
> > > > smoke in a bottle.  Then turned that bottle upside down into another,
> > > > slightly smaller bottle (as the one fit into the other pretty snugly)
> > > > and shook it up until the smoke was mostly absorbed into the water.
> > > > We repeated that process until we had a reasonable strong sulphuric
> > > > acid.  Then, went down to the local pharmacy, bought some glycerine,
> > > > and mixed that in and, voila, we had our own ether.  And it was
> > > > definitely strong enough to have immediate effects upon smelling it.
> > > > And all that was done on my parents' back porch.  Ahh, those were the
> > > > days!!  ;-)
>
> > > > > 'Why questions' do not miraculously disappear in any of this.  I am
> > > > > not likely to threaten a set of under-performing lasers with the bible
> > > > > (yet in exasperation have been known to do something very similar).  I
> > > > > am enraged when simple statistical methods are not used to evaluate
> > > > > problems in our legal systems, and note it's a scientist that is
> > > > > enraged.  The problem with science is not that it is value-free, but
> > > > > that it can be done by those with perverse values.  It is profoundly
> > > > > unscientific not to try and discover, to exclude 'data' from
> > > > > consideration, not to experiment in experience.  I cannot even
> > > > > hypothesise there is 'no god' (though I do think most history on this
> > > > > is bunk) as a scientist and remain intellectually honest.  I make
> > > > > epistemological decisions that involve faith and 'epistemic risk'.  In
> > > > > every scientific activity I can think of one has to exclude (after
> > > > > consideration) all sorts of barking dross.  The same seems true of
> > > > > history in general.  It may be true of religion.
>
> > > > > The fact that I will go through this effort rather than have a life
> > > > > with a 'string of broads on the Riviera' after a few bwanking lies
> > > > > seems itself to imply I am 'after something deeper'.  I may die and
> > > > > look back wishing I had done 'more of the enjoyable stuff'!  I may
> > > > > well have swallowed some moralising incantations and not recovered.
> > > > > So might Dawkins.  I find most religion stupid, selfish, rotten at the
> > > > > core and manipulative.  Rather like social science and politics.  If
> > > > > there was a way to explain all this in 'cold logic' and evidence, one
> > > > > might still have the problem of this 'magical experience of all' not
> > > > > being communable with everyone else (as they would be too dumb).  So I
> > > > > am not a man of the gleaming rays of inner peace or virtue that bloats
> > > > > to sanctimony at the drop of a patronising Socrates pun or a scrabble
> > > > > over crumbs in times of hardship.
>
> > > > > If we can defend Nico Bento (and properly get near to real social
> > > > > justice) we have come far enough.  We haven't.  I just prioritize this
> > > > > as something we could do in ordinary practice as a core of what our
> > > > > research programme should be.  The 'light' comes later for me.  In a
> > > > > forced decision, I would burn religious scrolls and books to stay warm
> > > > > before turning to others.  To dismiss religion in the name of science
> > > > > is merely religious.  This should not stop us expressing what
> > > > > 'religion' makes us feel or what 'science' makes us feel, though
> > > > > something does tend to stop us letting people who think mechanics is
> > > > > the
>
> ...
>
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