On 16 Feb, 18:47, RP <[email protected]> wrote: > As far as this world is concerned the illusion of free will makes us > accountable to society because we can speculate and give direction to > our actions , but God cannot hold us responsible as he sees through > the illusion or you may say he has created the illusion. >We feel free > and accountable but God knows for certain that we are just puppets in > his hands ,so after death all of us find peace whether we be saints or > sinners. Whatever retribution for our actions we get it is in this > world and not in the next. >
He can hold us responsible because he knows we cannot avoid the illusion. The ball is back in OUR court. > On Feb 16, 4:46 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 13 Feb, 08:29, RP <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > If your theory of total bondage is to be believed human beings will be > > > reduced to automatons and as such , at least in the eyes of God, to > > > be free from any responsibility for their actions ,whether good or > > > evil. As such fate of all after death would be the same because how > > > can God hold anyone accountable for his actions when whatever he did > > > was in complete bondage to God's will. Saint and sinner will meet the > > > same fate after death. > > > Nope. The illusion of free will is what makes us responsible. If we > > could see into the future, you would be correct; but we cannot. If we > > had no ability to speculate in the present ABOUT the future, you would > > be correct; but we can. These two points put the responsibility back > > on us because we do not know the outcome of our actions. Therefore > > God can hold us responsible, even though we will act in perfect > > accordance with His will. I admit that it's tricky to get one's head > > around, but it works and it is valid. A sinner, so to speak, doesn't > > know that he will always sin; rather, having no access to the future, > > believes that he MAY change. That appearance of possible change > > places the responsibility back onto the sinner TO change. And, if he > > does, he may become a saint. Whereas, in God's eyes, if he DID change > > his ways, he was destined to be a saint all along. > > > > On Feb 12, 8:14 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 10 Feb, 21:09, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > All I'll say is "what ever you do is what is in the space-time > > > > > continuum". And, as the space-time continuum contains all of space > > > > > and time, those events have ALWAYS been there and will ALWAYS remain > > > > > there. 'What you imagine your choices are' are just spatio-temporal > > > > > events that exist in the continuum. >Pat > > > > > > Really Pat, the Space-time Continuum has hardly been portrayed by the > > > > > scientific community as containing all elements of time, that > > > > > essentially and for this instance, being a containment of events past > > > > > and future within the time portal. > > > > > Not generally, no, because of how people react TO that. But look back > > > > at a few of Einstein's quotes like: Free Will is not compatible with > > > > space-time. He understood it but realised it wasn't a kettle of fish > > > > HE wan'ted to open. Minkowski knew it too. But, because of the > > > > radical changes it makes to the meaning of our lives, these people > > > > 'chose' to avoid that aspect of it and focus on physical things that > > > > DIDN'T open moral ketles of fish. > > > > > By definition a continuum contains all the point of whatever it > > > > contains. Therefore, if the continuum is a space-time continuum, it > > > > MUST contain all the spatio-temporal events that have occurred/are > > > > occurring/will occur. > > > > > >The non-spatial aspect of the time > > > > > dimension alone requires alternate mathematical equation, separate and > > > > > independent, in order to even begin evaluating it as having the > > > > > capability of containing incidents with 3d spatial qualities in some > > > > > chronological sequence. The temporal dimension may indicate a "when" > > > > > an occurrence may take place without defining the occurrence. > > > > > But the temporal and spatial dimensions are NOT separate. Therefore > > > > one cannot separate them like that. They are stiched together for all > > > > time throughout all space. And that would include the entire > > > > continuum of Big Bang-to-ultimate destruction-to-next Big Ban > > > > sequence. The entire sequence of Big Bang sequences is contained in > > > > the space-time continuum. > > > > > >But I > > > > > do think that more inquiry should be directed towards whether the > > > > > human mind, human imagination and human will is interdependent upon > > > > > any sequence in the temporal dimension of the space-time continuum. > > > > > Perhaps that is where distinction takes place, the departure of the > > > > > sentient experience from that of ordinary events confined to the > > > > > temporal dimension. This could be exemplified by the continuity of > > > > > planetary systems and orbital sequences within the universe. We can > > > > > calculate a solar eclipse or what time the sun will rise at any given > > > > > global coordinate but cannot indicate any future event concerning the > > > > > human experience ie; longevity and demise. So the attempt to establish > > > > > a connection between human events based on theoretical speculations is > > > > > at best speculative in and of itself. > > > > > Mostly, we can't calculate human events because the REAL events are > > > > quantum events. If we knew, for example, that there was a large > > > > asteroid headed for the Moon that would destroy it tomorrow, our > > > > 'calculations' for the next solar Eclipse would NOT have taken that > > > > into account. Therefore, even those occultations are 'presuming' that > > > > any unforeseen circumstances won't upset the system. They might and, > > > > as they are unforeseen, we won't know until it's too late. > > > > > > Now of course you should re-examine religious concepts that allow for > > > > > huge "IFs" such as destinations to heavenly locales based upon moral > > > > > behavioral choices when you are presenting "destiny" in the form of > > > > > pre-destined human experiences contained in the space-time continuum. > > > > > This is one of the main flaws in your presentation that leaves me > > > > > doubtful. > > > > > The Qur'an is qute clear that Allah guides whom He will and 'leaves > > > > astray' whom He will. This pretty well sums up that some people, > > > > whether they like it or not ARE damned from birth. But, because we > > > > have no access to the future, we don't know, ourselves, who those > > > > people are and could, change our thinking to avoid it. Whilst we > > > > would be, in reality, only fulfilling our destiny from God's > > > > perspective, from OUR perspective, we would 'think' we have altered > > > > our way of life in such a way as to preserve our souls. > > > > Remember that the key facts that give us the illusion of free will > > > > are: > > > > 1) We have no access to the future > > > > 2) We can speculate before we act > > > > > Change either of those two, and the illusion will disappear. > > > > > > On Feb 10, 6:20 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > On 10 Feb, 02:14, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Prescribed "Destiny" cannot be possible because I can choose > > > > > > > tomorrow > > > > > > > to stay in bed everyday until my destiny is forced upon me. > > > > > > > Choice is > > > > > > > not destiny. Please don't try to tell me that then my destiny > > > > > > > will be > > > > > > > to remain in bed everyday 24/7 because that is not going to fly. > > > > > > > All I'll say is "what ever you do is what is in the space-time > > > > > > continuum". And, as the space-time continuum contains all of space > > > > > > and time, those events have ALWAYS been there and will ALWAYS remain > > > > > > there. 'What you imagine your choices are' are just spatio-temporal > > > > > > events that exist in the continuum. > > > > > > > > The real issue with world hunger/poverty is that it "IS" curable. > > > > > > > There are simple solutions to world hunger/poverty but humanity is > > > > > > > just not doing anything about it. There are simple solutions to > > > > > > > homelessness but humanity is not doing anything about it. > > > > > > > Yup. Agreed. Sad, though, isn't it? > > > > > > > > What humanity "IS" doing is foreclosing on homes and farms, paying > > > > > > > farmers not to grow crops as a means of controlling stock figures > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > numerous other blockage devices designed to encourage quagmires. > > > > > > > > What humanity "IS" doing is setting up systems of government and > > > > > > > financial institutions that create "Mega Wealth" and "Wars" to > > > > > > > gain > > > > > > > wealth and it "IS" being accomplished without any problem. > > > > > > > Mega wealth>No Problem War>No Problem Hunger>Problem > > > > > > > Homelessness>Problem Poverty>Problem > > > > > > > > Then you have the sheep that are freezing in the cold while their > > > > > > > wool > > > > > > > is constantly being fleeced. They don't understand why they are > > > > > > > always in the cold when they have so much wool. They look and > > > > > > > see > > > > > > > the fleecers living warm and cozy with their wool and see piles of > > > > > > > wool not being used but sold to other fleecers. The sheep get > > > > > > > tired > > > > > > > of being cold so they start to get back their wool but the prices > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > really high and some sheep can't afford to buy any, so they must > > > > > > > remain cold, some are so cold that they freeze to death. Some of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > sheep protest but many of them are jailed, assassinated and turned > > > > > > > into mutton soup. > > > > > > > One of the sheep named Shep tells the other sheep that the reason > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > are cold is because they were born as bad sheep and must pray to > > > > > > > BahBah the great sheep deity. Shep teaches the sheep how to pray > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > tells the sheep they need to keep him warm so that he can keep > > > > > > > teaching them about BahBah. The sheep gather whatever wool they > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > glean from the fields and barns and keep Shep warm. Thousands of > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
