Commenting on Machiavelli (actually somewhat simplistic when I read the originals), Francis Bacon said he was merely a 'realist'. I suspect Popper hit the nail on the head when he said it hardly matters who leads, what matters is our ability to control them. This is an old story from Aristotle. Science tends to hold everything is complicated and that it's somewhat amazing there ever is any simplicity. Molly's piece in this thread is pretty good, but it's ethos is easily destroyed once thrown into the shark bowl. Rigsby points to views on depression I find interesting. The view in the link he provides is that normal thinking is depressive and that focusing on what is going on triggers more of it. Nearly everything around us is distractive, and this has long been a main function of religion. Cynicism can take the same distractive form. Thurman only makes me wonder why so few people are remotely bothered with what we are doing here and what a better life might be. I prefer women's netball to soccer these days, but this is hardly a 'groundswell'. Life is much less than I was brought up to believe it was or could be, and I find human beings doing remarkably little. Freud's ultimate argument is that we push reality away (under the carpet). My interests are in what we could positively do to live in peace and find some purpose, though I've spent most of my time avoiding this as it is depressing to think it. We don't seem even to be able to grasp what has already failed, particularly the millennial leader stuff. In Britain, we still worship the idiots who have have destroyed us and what might have come from the Enlightenment. We may not even vote Nulabour out and they have gerrymandered the whole country. The temptation in Thurman and any reasonable spiritual enquiry starts in evasion of our reality - this doesn't negate it all, yet leaves us in a kind of nowhere of possibilities, in short in the Kantian sublime of utterly potential thought and no biology. We've been utterly had by this before.
There's a book out on the 'Secret 30 year war with Iran'. We have been at war with Iran for eons. Most of us know little of this or human history generally. We do not enter the 'deconstruction' needed to establish a fair base for enquiry and flit off into 'spiritualism' or just chugg along with unvalidated beliefs in the myths that let us in-group (kill the Muslim bastards, slaughter the Infidels etc.). Orn said somewhere in his chicken counting above that there is a shortage of resources. Is there? Or do we have a system that creates shortage to control? I actually empathise with peaceful religious spirit, but generally only find words where there should be more to convince me I'm not just listening to another political crook or sectist weirdo. On 1 Mar, 07:14, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > Sure did Arch, not many bags are shrouded in secrecy in a room full of > neurotics. I would think Freud was a bit touched himself given his > depth of understanding and analysis of such, probably stemming from > much introspection. I think societies, in an attempt to avoid having > to face the sad realities of failed truth seeking, tend to obfuscation > of it all via orgasmic pursuits. Its all about pleasure in an > unpleasant world isn't it? Hedonism is born of the awareness that > playing according to the rules of others usually leads to less than > ideal circumstances save for those issuing the rules. This is > especially true when the rules seem to require forfeiture of many > amenities. One way to get out of a deep pit is to kill everyone else > in it and climb out on piled up bodies, such is the methodology behind > corporate ladders. The geography of politics is clear cut and linear, > no gray. We either get renewed or we get screwed, mostly the later > while ulterior motives of the actors usually takes precedence over > establishing honest policy. Surely Blair's super ego was being stroked > by the Bushies and a beautiful picture was created, and huge "oil" > painting but the black gold never arrived, only red soaked military > accoutrement packed in bags. The harsh reality set in on all sides > but the debacle became the burden of the commoners and future > generations. Like you say, ancient history. > > On Feb 28, 9:50 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Not my bag either Slipster, as you no doubt knew. When last teaching > > research methods, my mature class was in some uproar about what I had > > told them. Youngsters (18 plus) tend not to believe me when I tell > > them what does happen - the oldies (30 plus) tend to nod in agreement > > on the realities and accuse me of teaching them methods (of truth- > > seeking) that would surely get them sacked, until they realise these > > are for personal consumption only. All are generally eventually > > grateful I do tell them the truth (as I can keep the sharks out of the > > fish-bowl of the classroom), as it forewarns them against blurting any > > out at work. > > The standard works these days are a book by Campbell called 'The > > Liar's Tale' and stuff to be found at Standford EP on-line under > > 'dirty hands philosophy'. Machiavelli would do with Orwell's 1984 and > > commentary. I usually use a couple of films - 'The Rise and Rise of > > Michael Rimmer' (Peter Cook' and another called 'Beer' (US). There > > are many more. Students are generally surprised at how ancient you > > can take this, how much academic material there is and that they can > > find (led to the trough) articles from 1910 that look like they were > > written about now on 'statistics'. > > When it comes to sanctimonious crap and morons, Derrida and his > > henchpeople serve rather well. 'The Wire' does better, even > > 'Generation Kill'. There's a fair BBC one-off called 'On Expenses' on > > BBC Iplayer at the moment. One recent colleague was disgusted with me > > because 20 of his students left his psychoanalysis class after doing > > my lecture on 'What Freud thought of the common man' (not much). > > This still leaves room for consideration of better places to be. > > > On 1 Mar, 02:52, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Well then Archy, I guess maybe we have hit on the reasons Atheism is > > > growing and why the Dalai Lama matters in the world. Perhaps at least > > > there is no expectations, no suppose to be and nothing to worry > > > about. All the rest offers boundaries and guidelines probably meant > > > to be broken anyway. I believe in nothing therefore all is good and I > > > didn't sin because I ate meat last Friday nor will I go to hell > > > because I took a matter into hand and camelot as part of my prostate > > > cancer prevention program. If there really is some reasoning behind > > > all this chaos, torment and sanctimonious crap I would have to say the > > > perpetrator of it all is a moron. > > > > On Feb 28, 7:14 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Thieves had a habit of saying 'prove it copper' Slip. Quite why the > > > > scum thought I would deign to talk to them if I couldn't, I never > > > > found out. Much harder with the political class as we can't get the > > > > right warrants. Anyone who thinks any of this is modern should note > > > > 'statistics' is an ancient Greek word and note Orwell died a long time > > > > ago. It's now out that Blair was clinically depressed by Iraq and > > > > being done over by the Americans, though he failed to mention this > > > > giving evidence recently. We know about the lying, which is done > > > > secure in the knowledge the evidence is well-hidden. The question is > > > > whether we really want to try something else. Proof that official > > > > systems are bent is always an independent enquiry away, as opposed to > > > > the ritual cover-ups we call Public Enquiries etc. > > > > > On 1 Mar, 00:19, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Sure Vam, but sometimes there is fear in honesty as well, as the truth > > > > > may be hard and painful and when dishonesty can ease the pain. > > > > > Personal honesty is to no avail and sometimes a detriment when the > > > > > fish bowl is full of sharks, it is deceit that offers protection and > > > > > security. Much of our survival impinges upon our ability to hide, > > > > > mask, camouflage and conceal truisms concerning our personal world. > > > > > Therefore through this paradigm of life circumstance we can see that > > > > > dishonesty is an element consistent in all forms. If you all knew I > > > > > was worth 3.4 billion you would be asking to borrow and so I have to > > > > > be dishonest and play this poverty game in order to keep you all off > > > > > my back. Honesty in a den of thieves is basically being honest about > > > > > each others dishonesty as being dishonest is their business. When one > > > > > of the thieves comes in with a prize the rest know it wasn't purchased > > > > > and so the thief would be dishonest to say it was and so in all > > > > > honesty he tells the tale of the theft, thereby being honest about his > > > > > dishonesty. Do you think men date women because they are pretty and > > > > > have a brain? You see the ramifications of (dis)honesty are endless. > > > > > We can never really be whole in that sense but the problems arise when > > > > > each crosses over too far onto the other side, when it really matters > > > > > and consequences occur, when trust is at stake. The politicians know > > > > > how to push dishonesty to the brink without spilling over but > > > > > sometimes there is a breach and the wall comes tumbling down and many > > > > > are hurt in the aftermath. It is almost expected that dishonesty is > > > > > part of the procedure, the plan. They can't let us know everything, > > > > > just enough to make it all believable, like the weapons of mass > > > > > destruction. Who has to this day paid for the lies except the dead > > > > > soldiers and the innocents? Why aren't all those in the chain of > > > > > command and the chain of misinformation puppets behind bars? Is it > > > > > because of the concept of honesty among thieves? For sure! > > > > > > On Feb 28, 9:49 am, vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Honour among thieves is still possible, Slip, though thru fear. It > > > > > > is > > > > > > difficult for free men, because we need to be conscientious, to be > > > > > > as > > > > > > a matter of value ... without reason or cause. Which difficulty > > > > > > might > > > > > > be what Molly just pointed to. > > > > > > > Indeed, the others and the world come much later, if at all. > > > > > > Speaking > > > > > > for myself, I must say that it is possible, achievable, if we are > > > > > > willing to live with being denied and not flinch when it comes to > > > > > > denying ourself, in mental and material terms. > > > > > > > On Feb 28, 8:27 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > All roads seem to lead to the honesty issue, the magnetic carousel > > > > > > > that spins endlessly. The what good is anything without honesty > > > > > > > mantra. It will never be a reality because what is honest to one > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > dishonest to another and the other is honestly dishonest. Science > > > > > > > pursuits can be honest but then it comes down to how to use the > > > > > > > data > > > > > > > and how can it be successfully manipulated to utilize it for the > > > > > > > maximum benefit or profit. Can honesty survive in a dishonest > > > > > > > world? > > > > > > > Its like honor among thieves. > > > > > > > > On Feb 28, 1:47 am, vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > This line of thinking, err, counting, serves to distract. > > > > > > > > > The operative spirit is stated by Neil : " ... how we might > > > > > > > > live and > > > > > > > > what we could be ... " If our start is honest, we'll have the > > > > > > > > answers > > > > > > > > for ourself. > > > > > > > > > That's the rub, though. Honesty ! Animals are rarely dishonest, > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > experience tells me, it's a very evolved attribute for us to > > > > > > > > have. How > > > > > > > > many crooks will admit that they seek, value and expect their > > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > to be honest to them, that honesty is therefore the more > > > > > > > > fundamental > > > > > > > > and superceding a value even among the dishonest, and that they > > > > > > > > must > > > > > > > > therefore embrace it fully in their own life and not give in to > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > dishonest ways in thought and deed ? ! > > > > > > > > > Honesty is difficult because it demands a consistent core within > > > > > > > > ourself. That needs investment from us ... an Honesty > > > > > > > > Foundation, to > > > > > > > > seed and nurture and promote honesty as the preferred value in > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > pragmatic and expedience filled lives, on a massive scale. It > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > have to be planned, organised for and executed. But, seeming so > > > > > > > > uneconomic and non viable, who's to fund it ? I believe, it is > > > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > world of business and the government to step in, simply because > > > > > > > > they > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
