I think we need the honesty route too Molly. I simply fear it's too easy to fake and that we need some way to take on 'dirty hands' assumptions in the open.
On 4 Mar, 01:13, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > "As for honesty, it depends on ones > culture but generally we repress honesty through etiquette and > education and dishonesty in varying degrees becomes acceptable. I do > understand Molly thoughts about family keeping one straight but often > this backfires" > > I am not sure if dishonesty is culturally acceptable, but there is a > great deal of it going on between people in society. I think we do > ourselves and the world a disfavor when we rationalize our own > dishonesty by saying that others do it so why not me. My experience > is, that in direct relationships of every kind, people appreciate > honesty and tire easily of dishonesty. And dishonesty with self only > creates limitation, so what we think is easing our pain or making the > situation easier, is really only keeping us from what we think might > be uncomfortable or difficult, and in the long run, prolongs the > agony. It may be difficult and painful to take an honest look at > ourselves, but moving through fear is the only way to dissipate it and > ease the pain and suffering. Can't avoid or deny it. There are ways to > communicate with loved ones with honesty that allows for open doors > and open hearts, the way to reconciliation. Do we really want to > perpetuate the misery in the world, or can we have the courage to > insist on honesty with ourselves and others, and show a better way? > > On Mar 2, 9:35 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > As soon as my head hit the pillow I remembered the Cold War and its > > impact on the Middle East and Africa.//Will check back as I just > > printed a coupon for 50% off and I feel rich! A new non-stick muffin > > tin and farewell to muffin liners! Yipee! > > > On Mar 2, 1:37 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > One can put much of the blame on French and British mapmakers carving > > > up the Ottoman Empire after WWI- they showed little regard for the > > > natural boundaries of tribes and warlords. Also, the importance of oil > > > was an enormous factor- for instance, I feel Kuwait was created as an > > > ace in the hole since Iraq could be intractable.But one could also go > > > back to Napoleon's expedition to Egypt or the Crusades or the split of > > > Christianity between the West and the Byzantine Empire. At any rate a > > > balance of power failed in Europe as well as the modern Middle East.// > > > Am discovering ancient China as I hadn't known much about it- am up to > > > the Sung Dynasty but the Mongols are right around the corner! I may > > > have to read it twice as it's hard to keep everything straight since > > > this survey of civilization includes a great many examples of the arts > > > and religious influences.//You may also want to think about the > > > inequities between rich and poor nations or even within nations as a > > > cause of conflict and misery.//As for honesty, it depends on ones > > > culture but generally we repress honesty through etiquette and > > > education and dishonesty in varying degrees becomes acceptable. I do > > > understand Molly thoughts about family keeping one straight but often > > > this backfires hence sayings about keeping one's own counsel or the > > > danger of what can't be unsaid, etc.//Back to Eden- first > > > disobedience, then a lie and later a murder- not much of start for > > > us! :-) > > > > On Mar 1, 7:40 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I was thinking back to an earlier post of yours earlier Slip - the > > > > 'Muslim threat'. I see 5 American Jihadis have been arrested in > > > > Pakistan. We had a 'Dispatches' (Channel 4 here) documentary on the > > > > IFE (Islamic Forum Europe). Very disturbing stuff - infiltration of > > > > the Labour Party and a whole wad of rather nasty, corrupt activities. > > > > The good thing was that Muslims came forward to deplore what they are > > > > doing. > > > > I would go a long way myself down the spiritual route to 'light' if I > > > > could feel more comfortable that the experiences would not be > > > > manipulated. The idea of meeting God or the Blue Rabbit and thus > > > > living under such authority does not appeal. Neither does tradition > > > > or just blowing that away altogether in some anarchist binge - yet it > > > > does seem that we could get away from the worst of what we group > > > > together to do in ways that are so traditional all of history can seem > > > > to be about the quagmire. > > > > > There's a point in Hegel (somewhere - he's truly awful) where he > > > > declares we now have history. Though I doubt history has any meaning > > > > at all in terms of laws, I am struck that a genuine understanding of > > > > it 'ready-to-hand' is always missing. One only has to think of posts > > > > in here where a few bits of stuff supporting a particular view are > > > > thrown in - perhaps on a wider scale we have the global warming > > > > debacle and the lack of public explanation of why we did Iraq or are > > > > in Afghanistan. We end up asserting opinion that can all be > > > > criticised rather than establishing facts. > > > > In academic terms, one can always check the internal validity of > > > > argument, and/or raise external critique that has different root > > > > values or metaphors. The great bits of science tend to be where > > > > someone or group bridge the areas seemingly incompatible. Einstein > > > > finds himself with Maxwell's equations and yet contradictory > > > > experimental evidence, so fixes the kinematics underlying both. Wiles > > > > bridges otherwise incompatible forms of equations to get at Fermat's > > > > last theorem. We can look at diabetes as a disease, but then find > > > > Dolphins use it as an advantage because they can switch it on and off. > > > > > One can see this in material Orn often suggests, certainly in Vam and > > > > Molly - to me it's more familiar as Wittgensteinian deconstruction - > > > > looking for similarities deep in apparently opposing arguments. What > > > > I have trouble with is the assertion of another 'Hegelian moment' in > > > > which to know anything we have to know all or, weirdly, nothing other > > > > than to be in a supposition-less and pre-suppositional state, or 'in > > > > the light'. It all starts to feel like 'you'll be all right once > > > > we've washed your brain' stuff. It starts to make me feel the way > > > > politicians do when they say god will judge them. The often claim to > > > > have met 'Blue Rabbits' to which we have no access - trusty secret > > > > service types and all. This is a general problem with introspectively > > > > achieved states. They are not offered to our access, but used as > > > > 'authority'. > > > > > It's not the short skirts mate - but the tall, athletic women. Sue > > > > used to play a mean game. > > > > > I saw some guy say that no one would have guessed that 'dealing with > > > > Iraq' would have led to the emergence of Iran as a regional power. I > > > > thought we put Saddam in power and armed him to curb Iran? I heard > > > > plenty of prediction that the problems in Iraq would start after any > > > > basic military victory and that Iran would benefit. I've read books > > > > dating from 1919 suggesting much the same. The guy is some kind of > > > > diplomat and government advisor. Is he lying or just bafflingly > > > > incompetent - or is this more of Gabby's 'what human beings are made > > > > to forget' strategy in action? > > > > > On 1 Mar, 22:19, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I would think our reaction to modern day political deceptions makes us > > > > > all realists. The reality of the fallout doesn't leave much else to > > > > > consider and most voters seem unaware their vote is actually going to > > > > > the Machiavellian Party. Controlling those that are voted in to > > > > > control us, now that is something to think about. KP may be spot on > > > > > but unfortunately it comes down to our inability and much so our > > > > > impotence in hard line control. When you vote for Ben Dover that is > > > > > what you get. Fundamentally it has become such a maze to navigate that > > > > > even to consider trying to get hold of the reigns is a dizzying > > > > > prospect. Sure Molly's piece is very pretty but I found it fodder for > > > > > day dreaming, like getting lost in Debussy compositions on a sunny > > > > > afternoon on the beach but then the reality of course, everyone out of > > > > > the water, the sharks are in a financial feeding frenzy. Rigs post is > > > > > interesting and I find I'd have to spend more time mulling it over, > > > > > allowing for better absorption of it, the odd angle of viewing > > > > > depression. Is it really the netball or the short skirt attractions? > > > > > Your right about not being able to recognize our past failures, at > > > > > least in the proper way in order to create real change. This is the > > > > > obstacle that keep us in the vicious cycle of repetitive disasters. > > > > > Are there too many cooks spoiling the brew? People feign > > > > > dictatorship, authoritarian and totalitarian rule but have we done > > > > > much better and is the suffering that much less? Would a dictatorship > > > > > be all so back if the dictator was a benevolent soul? Our pubs are > > > > > too far apart for us to spend some hours further dissecting the arena > > > > > of human quagmires. Gerrymandering is all over my friend and even on > > > > > the local levels but we have to consider much blame goes to those > > > > > accepting the bounty. In a way it is as if we don't want honesty but > > > > > only want to know when it is our turn to be corrupt. I've know some > > > > > really good people that turned rancid when they became politicians and > > > > > others that lost my attention when they made a right turn on to the > > > > > religious highway. > > > > > > On Mar 1, 10:25 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Commenting on Machiavelli (actually somewhat simplistic when I read > > > > > > the originals), Francis Bacon said he was merely a 'realist'. I > > > > > > suspect Popper hit the nail on the head when he said it hardly > > > > > > matters > > > > > > who leads, what matters is our ability to control them. This is an > > > > > > old story from Aristotle. Science tends to hold everything is > > > > > > complicated and that it's somewhat amazing there ever is any > > > > > > simplicity. > > > > > > Molly's piece in this thread is pretty good, but it's ethos is > > > > > > easily > > > > > > destroyed once thrown into the shark bowl. Rigsby points to views > > > > > > on > > > > > > depression I find interesting. The view in the link he provides is > > > > > > that normal thinking is depressive and that focusing on what is > > > > > > going > > > > > > on triggers more of it. Nearly everything around us is distractive, > > > > > > and this has long been a main function of religion. Cynicism can > > > > > > take > > > > > > the same distractive form. > > > > > > Thurman only makes me wonder why so few people are remotely bothered > > > > > > with what we are doing here and what a better life might be. I > > > > > > prefer > > > > > > women's netball to soccer these days, but this is hardly a > > > > > > 'groundswell'. Life is much less than I was brought up to believe > > > > > > it > > > > > > was or could be, and I find human beings doing remarkably little. > > > > > > Freud's ultimate argument is that we push reality away (under the > > > > > > carpet). > > > > > > My interests are in what we could positively do to live in peace and > > > > > > find some purpose, though I've spent most of my time avoiding this > > > > > > as > > > > > > it is depressing to think it. We don't seem even to be able to > > > > > > grasp > > > > > > what has already failed, particularly the millennial leader stuff. > > > > > > In > > > > > > Britain, we still worship the idiots who have have destroyed us and > > > > > > what might have come from the Enlightenment. > > > ... > > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. 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