I would think our reaction to modern day political deceptions makes us all realists. The reality of the fallout doesn't leave much else to consider and most voters seem unaware their vote is actually going to the Machiavellian Party. Controlling those that are voted in to control us, now that is something to think about. KP may be spot on but unfortunately it comes down to our inability and much so our impotence in hard line control. When you vote for Ben Dover that is what you get. Fundamentally it has become such a maze to navigate that even to consider trying to get hold of the reigns is a dizzying prospect. Sure Molly's piece is very pretty but I found it fodder for day dreaming, like getting lost in Debussy compositions on a sunny afternoon on the beach but then the reality of course, everyone out of the water, the sharks are in a financial feeding frenzy. Rigs post is interesting and I find I'd have to spend more time mulling it over, allowing for better absorption of it, the odd angle of viewing depression. Is it really the netball or the short skirt attractions? Your right about not being able to recognize our past failures, at least in the proper way in order to create real change. This is the obstacle that keep us in the vicious cycle of repetitive disasters. Are there too many cooks spoiling the brew? People feign dictatorship, authoritarian and totalitarian rule but have we done much better and is the suffering that much less? Would a dictatorship be all so back if the dictator was a benevolent soul? Our pubs are too far apart for us to spend some hours further dissecting the arena of human quagmires. Gerrymandering is all over my friend and even on the local levels but we have to consider much blame goes to those accepting the bounty. In a way it is as if we don't want honesty but only want to know when it is our turn to be corrupt. I've know some really good people that turned rancid when they became politicians and others that lost my attention when they made a right turn on to the religious highway.
On Mar 1, 10:25 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > Commenting on Machiavelli (actually somewhat simplistic when I read > the originals), Francis Bacon said he was merely a 'realist'. I > suspect Popper hit the nail on the head when he said it hardly matters > who leads, what matters is our ability to control them. This is an > old story from Aristotle. Science tends to hold everything is > complicated and that it's somewhat amazing there ever is any > simplicity. > Molly's piece in this thread is pretty good, but it's ethos is easily > destroyed once thrown into the shark bowl. Rigsby points to views on > depression I find interesting. The view in the link he provides is > that normal thinking is depressive and that focusing on what is going > on triggers more of it. Nearly everything around us is distractive, > and this has long been a main function of religion. Cynicism can take > the same distractive form. > Thurman only makes me wonder why so few people are remotely bothered > with what we are doing here and what a better life might be. I prefer > women's netball to soccer these days, but this is hardly a > 'groundswell'. Life is much less than I was brought up to believe it > was or could be, and I find human beings doing remarkably little. > Freud's ultimate argument is that we push reality away (under the > carpet). > My interests are in what we could positively do to live in peace and > find some purpose, though I've spent most of my time avoiding this as > it is depressing to think it. We don't seem even to be able to grasp > what has already failed, particularly the millennial leader stuff. In > Britain, we still worship the idiots who have have destroyed us and > what might have come from the Enlightenment. We may not even vote > Nulabour out and they have gerrymandered the whole country. The > temptation in Thurman and any reasonable spiritual enquiry starts in > evasion of our reality - this doesn't negate it all, yet leaves us in > a kind of nowhere of possibilities, in short in the Kantian sublime of > utterly potential thought and no biology. We've been utterly had by > this before. > > There's a book out on the 'Secret 30 year war with Iran'. We have > been at war with Iran for eons. Most of us know little of this or > human history generally. We do not enter the 'deconstruction' needed > to establish a fair base for enquiry and flit off into 'spiritualism' > or just chugg along with unvalidated beliefs in the myths that let us > in-group (kill the Muslim bastards, slaughter the Infidels etc.). Orn > said somewhere in his chicken counting above that there is a shortage > of resources. Is there? Or do we have a system that creates shortage > to control? I actually empathise with peaceful religious spirit, but > generally only find words where there should be more to convince me > I'm not just listening to another political crook or sectist weirdo. > > On 1 Mar, 07:14, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Sure did Arch, not many bags are shrouded in secrecy in a room full of > > neurotics. I would think Freud was a bit touched himself given his > > depth of understanding and analysis of such, probably stemming from > > much introspection. I think societies, in an attempt to avoid having > > to face the sad realities of failed truth seeking, tend to obfuscation > > of it all via orgasmic pursuits. Its all about pleasure in an > > unpleasant world isn't it? Hedonism is born of the awareness that > > playing according to the rules of others usually leads to less than > > ideal circumstances save for those issuing the rules. This is > > especially true when the rules seem to require forfeiture of many > > amenities. One way to get out of a deep pit is to kill everyone else > > in it and climb out on piled up bodies, such is the methodology behind > > corporate ladders. The geography of politics is clear cut and linear, > > no gray. We either get renewed or we get screwed, mostly the later > > while ulterior motives of the actors usually takes precedence over > > establishing honest policy. Surely Blair's super ego was being stroked > > by the Bushies and a beautiful picture was created, and huge "oil" > > painting but the black gold never arrived, only red soaked military > > accoutrement packed in bags. The harsh reality set in on all sides > > but the debacle became the burden of the commoners and future > > generations. Like you say, ancient history. > > > On Feb 28, 9:50 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Not my bag either Slipster, as you no doubt knew. When last teaching > > > research methods, my mature class was in some uproar about what I had > > > told them. Youngsters (18 plus) tend not to believe me when I tell > > > them what does happen - the oldies (30 plus) tend to nod in agreement > > > on the realities and accuse me of teaching them methods (of truth- > > > seeking) that would surely get them sacked, until they realise these > > > are for personal consumption only. All are generally eventually > > > grateful I do tell them the truth (as I can keep the sharks out of the > > > fish-bowl of the classroom), as it forewarns them against blurting any > > > out at work. > > > The standard works these days are a book by Campbell called 'The > > > Liar's Tale' and stuff to be found at Standford EP on-line under > > > 'dirty hands philosophy'. Machiavelli would do with Orwell's 1984 and > > > commentary. I usually use a couple of films - 'The Rise and Rise of > > > Michael Rimmer' (Peter Cook' and another called 'Beer' (US). There > > > are many more. Students are generally surprised at how ancient you > > > can take this, how much academic material there is and that they can > > > find (led to the trough) articles from 1910 that look like they were > > > written about now on 'statistics'. > > > When it comes to sanctimonious crap and morons, Derrida and his > > > henchpeople serve rather well. 'The Wire' does better, even > > > 'Generation Kill'. There's a fair BBC one-off called 'On Expenses' on > > > BBC Iplayer at the moment. One recent colleague was disgusted with me > > > because 20 of his students left his psychoanalysis class after doing > > > my lecture on 'What Freud thought of the common man' (not much). > > > This still leaves room for consideration of better places to be. > > > > On 1 Mar, 02:52, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Well then Archy, I guess maybe we have hit on the reasons Atheism is > > > > growing and why the Dalai Lama matters in the world. Perhaps at least > > > > there is no expectations, no suppose to be and nothing to worry > > > > about. All the rest offers boundaries and guidelines probably meant > > > > to be broken anyway. I believe in nothing therefore all is good and I > > > > didn't sin because I ate meat last Friday nor will I go to hell > > > > because I took a matter into hand and camelot as part of my prostate > > > > cancer prevention program. If there really is some reasoning behind > > > > all this chaos, torment and sanctimonious crap I would have to say the > > > > perpetrator of it all is a moron. > > > > > On Feb 28, 7:14 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Thieves had a habit of saying 'prove it copper' Slip. Quite why the > > > > > scum thought I would deign to talk to them if I couldn't, I never > > > > > found out. Much harder with the political class as we can't get the > > > > > right warrants. Anyone who thinks any of this is modern should note > > > > > 'statistics' is an ancient Greek word and note Orwell died a long time > > > > > ago. It's now out that Blair was clinically depressed by Iraq and > > > > > being done over by the Americans, though he failed to mention this > > > > > giving evidence recently. We know about the lying, which is done > > > > > secure in the knowledge the evidence is well-hidden. The question is > > > > > whether we really want to try something else. Proof that official > > > > > systems are bent is always an independent enquiry away, as opposed to > > > > > the ritual cover-ups we call Public Enquiries etc. > > > > > > On 1 Mar, 00:19, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Sure Vam, but sometimes there is fear in honesty as well, as the > > > > > > truth > > > > > > may be hard and painful and when dishonesty can ease the pain. > > > > > > Personal honesty is to no avail and sometimes a detriment when the > > > > > > fish bowl is full of sharks, it is deceit that offers protection and > > > > > > security. Much of our survival impinges upon our ability to hide, > > > > > > mask, camouflage and conceal truisms concerning our personal world. > > > > > > Therefore through this paradigm of life circumstance we can see that > > > > > > dishonesty is an element consistent in all forms. If you all knew I > > > > > > was worth 3.4 billion you would be asking to borrow and so I have to > > > > > > be dishonest and play this poverty game in order to keep you all off > > > > > > my back. Honesty in a den of thieves is basically being honest > > > > > > about > > > > > > each others dishonesty as being dishonest is their business. When > > > > > > one > > > > > > of the thieves comes in with a prize the rest know it wasn't > > > > > > purchased > > > > > > and so the thief would be dishonest to say it was and so in all > > > > > > honesty he tells the tale of the theft, thereby being honest about > > > > > > his > > > > > > dishonesty. Do you think men date women because they are pretty and > > > > > > have a brain? You see the ramifications of (dis)honesty are endless. > > > > > > We can never really be whole in that sense but the problems arise > > > > > > when > > > > > > each crosses over too far onto the other side, when it really > > > > > > matters > > > > > > and consequences occur, when trust is at stake. The politicians > > > > > > know > > > > > > how to push dishonesty to the brink without spilling over but > > > > > > sometimes there is a breach and the wall comes tumbling down and > > > > > > many > > > > > > are hurt in the aftermath. It is almost expected that dishonesty is > > > > > > part of the procedure, the plan. They can't let us know everything, > > > > > > just enough to make it all believable, like the weapons of mass > > > > > > destruction. Who has to this day > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. 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