On 4 June, 09:21, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > your sneer is showing. I will leave what Pat knows and doesn't up to > Pat. But will say, like relative and absolute, One and Many, choice > is a matter of state and stage of being. Ultimately, as we have > realized the One within our individuality, our choices are the choices > of the One, our self will becomes Divine Will. Yet, the choice to > realize the One, to move toward, with or against others, to use > hateful words or compassionate words, to make the move to understand > or not, are all the relative choices that allow us to realize > ourselves as One in Many. The paradox of it, is that we have choice > and non choice and ultimately, they are the same because when we have > realized infinite possibility, we have made all choices and so no > choices. How many people do you know that have realized infinite > possibility (Christ consciousness)? Anyone capable of moving against > another person, has not. This realization, like all others, requires > a change in viewpoint (that is a choice) that precludes such action. >
Those 'choices' are illusory and depend on our inability to know the future like we do the past. We have access to the past through memory but have no such facility with respect to the future. Einstein put it best when he said that 'Free will is not compatible with space-time' and it's really as simple as that. The space-time continuum holds ALL events: those of our past, any present and all of the future. The appearance of free will comes about because we have no access to the future but DO, in the present, have the ability to perceive possible 'next moves'; however, we can only ever perform one of those possibilities and it is the one act we perform that is the act that was, forever, contained in the continuum. Put mathematically: There is an event, X, that is a possible future event and there is an event, Y, that is a possible future event. We shall refer to the ACTUAL event as 'A'. Reality, in a space-time continuum, allows for either: A=X or A=Y But, if free will exists, the equation would read: A= (X or Y) But, we can never perform (X or Y), rather, we can either perform X, or we can perform Y. It's a subtle difference but one with a HUGE impact. I hope the parentheses helps. What you say regarding responsibility FOR our actions is correct. We are. for the very same reason that we have no choice, that is, because we have no access to the future. Having that veil preventing us from knowing the truth of future events means that we only have our past information to use at any given present-time in which we act. Because we don't know what WILL happen, the onus is thrown back on us as to what we do BECAUSE we cannot see the future. It's a beautiful Catch-22 that gives us both the illusion of free will and the responsibility for our actions. A note about acting against others: all acts against others must be subsets of the 'infinite possibilities' that you state exist. Yet, I can firmly state with perfect knowledge, that there is NOT an infinite number of possibilities. For example, I cannot be you. Nor can I be anyone other than myself. These are not possible. It is possible to discuss me being you, but it can NEVER be done in reality. So, there is a set of actions that are 'possible actions' and that set is limited, although the set differs for each of us. Another example is that I cannot have both X and Y chromosomes and be a human female. Although it could have been stated that, before anyone knew I was male (i.e., before my birth) that it was 'conceivable' that I could be female, it was NOT, technically, possible, as my masculinity had already been determined at my conception (in a 'macro' view, it was determined at the Big Bang, as all events in THIS universe are effects of that cause). Also, realisations aren't choices, per se, either. Rather, they 'occur to us' and are beyond our control, just like our feelings boil up from within due to outside influences. We do, though, have a certain amount of time to think about how we react TO those realisations and/or feelings and it is our duty to one another to take that time and do just that. > On Jun 3, 6:44 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > ...even Pat knows this! > > > On Jun 3, 12:00 pm, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > so, you don't choose the words you put into your posts? > > > > On Jun 3, 1:49 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > All choice is an illusion. > > > > Cynicism is but ignorance as to the true nature of things > > > > > On Jun 3, 8:20 am, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > we choose our words, our thoughts and emotions. But as you say, when > > > > > we are "in the equipoise way" those choices are self evident and, as > > > > > DWB points out, only Brahaman. Cynicism will not get us there. > > > > > > On Jun 3, 12:40 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Being aware that there is no choice to be made and remaining in > > > > > > equipoise is the way. > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 3:43 pm, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Making the choice to be neither, yet embracing all those that > > > > > > > are, as > > > > > > > essential to the One, is the means to escaping the slavery we each > > > > > > > impose on ourselves. > > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 5:29 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Those who dominate are actually slaves to their own lower > > > > > > > > nature. > > > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 12:15 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Molly is right. > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:33 AM, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Such confidence is rarely seen. > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 3:00 pm, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > we all use it, you are no exception. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 1:57 pm, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** assumes the royal 'we' is being used *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 4:43 am, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "we need to take on a greater arrogance to put the ' > > > > > > > > > > > > > good - at > > > > > > > > > > > > > - heart ' arrogant in place." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see, like toning down anger with more anger. Yes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > this can be > > > > > > > > > > > > > effective, but only if our counter anger is seen in > > > > > > > > > > > > > truth by us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Often, in such situations, instead of one person > > > > > > > > > > > > > lovingly using the > > > > > > > > > > > > > affect of anger to tone down another into a more > > > > > > > > > > > > > rational state, we > > > > > > > > > > > > > get two people raging at one another. And like > > > > > > > > > > > > > force, this rarely > > > > > > > > > > > > > comes to love. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The trick to it would be, I suppose, that our > > > > > > > > > > > > > judgment of another be > > > > > > > > > > > > > completely clear, devoid of all self serving agenda, > > > > > > > > > > > > > shining like the > > > > > > > > > > > > > sun at high noon, without shadow. Often, we do not > > > > > > > > > > > > > recognize that it > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not until the words are already spoken and the > > > > > > > > > > > > > damage done. More > > > > > > > > > > > > > often, we donn the suit of the warrior out to squash > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrong in another > > > > > > > > > > > > > with our sword of love and come to find that indeed, > > > > > > > > > > > > > we have picked > > > > > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > > > > > > the sword of self interest instead, and are > > > > > > > > > > > > > ultimately at war with > > > > > > > > > > > > > ourselves, only recognizing it in other when our own > > > > > > > > > > > > > shadow turns the > > > > > > > > > > > > > mirror to darkness. Thus, humility has its way with > > > > > > > > > > > > > us, and the > > > > > > > > > > light > > > > > > > > > > > > > is restored. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that one big clue as to which is which is the > > > > > > > > > > > > > language that > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > choose, even in our own thoughts. If we are looking > > > > > > > > > > > > > to expose and > > > > > > > > > > > > > condemn with references of evil and harsh words, we > > > > > > > > > > > > > are usually > > > > > > > > > > > > > quelling our own ghosts. When we are reaching out > > > > > > > > > > > > > with compassion > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > holding other in the greater good, we are moving in > > > > > > > > > > > > > compassion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, when we are revved up with emotion, we > > > > > > > > > > > > > sometimes don't > > > > > > > > > > > > > stop to determine the difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 31, 8:40 am, vamadevananda > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't the whole thing, Molly ! Sometimes, as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they say, God > > > > > > > > > > > > > > willing, we need to take on a greater arrogance to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > put the ' good - > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - heart ' arrogant in place. Out of sheer love of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the other, if I > > > > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > > > > > > add. It usually is on account of forgetfulness and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the treatment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > serves to shake things up in a moment or for a day > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or week, for the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > protagonist to reflect and realise the simplest of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > truths he'd come > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > transgress. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We'll all have the time and occasion to come > > > > > > > > > > > > > > together when we can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate or deprecate our bodies, talk of our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feelings and > > > > > > > > > > emotions, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our thoughts and ideas, and our knowledge, with the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > full awareness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that it is the others who are making it possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Occasionally too, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the knowledge comes to resonate among two or may > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people. That's the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > blessing beyond par ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But force - creating such resonance is not only > > > > > > > > > > > > > > futile but > > > > > > > > > > damaging, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even traumatic, too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 31, 5:05 pm, Molly <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arrogance can be offputting. My experience is, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that it is > > > > > > > > > > usually, in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one way or another, shattered by humility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Experience has a way > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > giving this to us in the most surprising ways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 31, 3:27 am, vamadevananda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " But how do we know that someone else is not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > just exploring a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > particular phase in their overall integrity, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and may find > > > > > > > > > > something > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tomorrow to move them beyond ?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As PSK said, by the rigidity, definitiveness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and finality in > > > > > > > > > > one's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > public declarations. The evangelists and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > extremists do that, so > > > > > > > > > > do the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doom - sayers ! It is the damage by such > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > declarations that > > > > > > > > > > must be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > preempted, if we may. The moving beyond, as the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2012 doom > > > > > > > > > > sayers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > certainly will, is in the future, having > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nothing to mitigate > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > damages and scarring one is causing today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Why is it important to judge a person's view > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as closed or > > > > > > > > > > open ?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because closed views are like stagnant, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unreplenished, waters > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filthy and poisonous ! The open view is above > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all about the > > > > > > > > > > awareness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of what is factual, experiential, deductive or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > extrapolatory, > > > > > > > > > > belief > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > however reasonable to oneself, and conjectural. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's important > > > > > > > > > > to keep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a hold on oneself, and not miss out or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > obfuscate these > > > > > > > > > > qualifying > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > truths pertaining to our thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once thoughts are shared in such open spirit, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we do not > > > > > > > > > > consider > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ourself and our thought as privileged or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overridingly more > > > > > > > > > > important > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > than that of other ( well meaning or like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > endowed ) > > > > > > > > > > individuals. You'd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find the dialogues which then proceed to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > relatively free of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > desperation and violence, not to speak of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > human ' joys, > > > > > > > > > > laughters > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and flirtations ' fostered by our readiness to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate the ' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meanings ' of what our interlocutors offer. In > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > short, we remain > > > > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > amongst others ... not seekers or claimants of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > privileged > > > > > > > > > > status or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > position. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
