"I cannot be you. Nor can I be anyone other than myself. These are not possible."
this is where we part ways, my friend. I contend that we ARE all others, and ourselves, the One and the Many. Within us, we are the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as realized in the moment through awareness. "All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:27 - 28) Someone who has realized themselves as individuals, and all others, "knoweth the son." The son ascended to the father in us allows heaven on earth. There you have the heart of the Christian mystic teaching. Can we live in all time consciousness and linear consciousness simultaneously? I believe so. You may not. It's OK. I respect you completely. "We do, though, have a certain amount of time to think about how we react TO those realisations and/or feelings and it is our duty to one another to take that time and do just that." Interesting, and what some, I suppose would feel to be choice. "Come onto me" would be the first step. On Jun 4, 7:39 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > On 4 June, 09:21, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > your sneer is showing. I will leave what Pat knows and doesn't up to > > Pat. But will say, like relative and absolute, One and Many, choice > > is a matter of state and stage of being. Ultimately, as we have > > realized the One within our individuality, our choices are the choices > > of the One, our self will becomes Divine Will. Yet, the choice to > > realize the One, to move toward, with or against others, to use > > hateful words or compassionate words, to make the move to understand > > or not, are all the relative choices that allow us to realize > > ourselves as One in Many. The paradox of it, is that we have choice > > and non choice and ultimately, they are the same because when we have > > realized infinite possibility, we have made all choices and so no > > choices. How many people do you know that have realized infinite > > possibility (Christ consciousness)? Anyone capable of moving against > > another person, has not. This realization, like all others, requires > > a change in viewpoint (that is a choice) that precludes such action. > > Those 'choices' are illusory and depend on our inability to know the > future like we do the past. We have access to the past through memory > but have no such facility with respect to the future. Einstein put it > best when he said that 'Free will is not compatible with space-time' > and it's really as simple as that. The space-time continuum holds ALL > events: those of our past, any present and all of the future. The > appearance of free will comes about because we have no access to the > future but DO, in the present, have the ability to perceive possible > 'next moves'; however, we can only ever perform one of those > possibilities and it is the one act we perform that is the act that > was, forever, contained in the continuum. > > Put mathematically: There is an event, X, that is a possible future > event and there is an event, Y, that is a possible future event. We > shall refer to the ACTUAL event as 'A'. > > Reality, in a space-time continuum, allows for either: > > A=X > or > A=Y > > But, if free will exists, the equation would read: A= (X or Y) > > But, we can never perform (X or Y), rather, we can either perform X, > or we can perform Y. It's a subtle difference but one with a HUGE > impact. I hope the parentheses helps. > > What you say regarding responsibility FOR our actions is correct. We > are. for the very same reason that we have no choice, that is, > because we have no access to the future. Having that veil preventing > us from knowing the truth of future events means that we only have our > past information to use at any given present-time in which we act. > Because we don't know what WILL happen, the onus is thrown back on us > as to what we do BECAUSE we cannot see the future. It's a beautiful > Catch-22 that gives us both the illusion of free will and the > responsibility for our actions. > > A note about acting against others: all acts against others must be > subsets of the 'infinite possibilities' that you state exist. Yet, I > can firmly state with perfect knowledge, that there is NOT an infinite > number of possibilities. For example, I cannot be you. Nor can I be > anyone other than myself. These are not possible. It is possible to > discuss me being you, but it can NEVER be done in reality. So, there > is a set of actions that are 'possible actions' and that set is > limited, although the set differs for each of us. Another example is > that I cannot have both X and Y chromosomes and be a human female. > Although it could have been stated that, before anyone knew I was male > (i.e., before my birth) that it was 'conceivable' that I could be > female, it was NOT, technically, possible, as my masculinity had > already been determined at my conception (in a 'macro' view, it was > determined at the Big Bang, as all events in THIS universe are effects > of that cause). > > Also, realisations aren't choices, per se, either. Rather, they > 'occur to us' and are beyond our control, just like our feelings boil > up from within due to outside influences. We do, though, have a > certain amount of time to think about how we react TO those > realisations and/or feelings and it is our duty to one another to take > that time and do just that. > > > > > On Jun 3, 6:44 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > ...even Pat knows this! > > > > On Jun 3, 12:00 pm, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > so, you don't choose the words you put into your posts? > > > > > On Jun 3, 1:49 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > All choice is an illusion. > > > > > Cynicism is but ignorance as to the true nature of things > > > > > > On Jun 3, 8:20 am, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > we choose our words, our thoughts and emotions. But as you say, > > > > > > when > > > > > > we are "in the equipoise way" those choices are self evident and, as > > > > > > DWB points out, only Brahaman. Cynicism will not get us there. > > > > > > > On Jun 3, 12:40 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Being aware that there is no choice to be made and remaining in > > > > > > > equipoise is the way. > > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 3:43 pm, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Making the choice to be neither, yet embracing all those that > > > > > > > > are, as > > > > > > > > essential to the One, is the means to escaping the slavery we > > > > > > > > each > > > > > > > > impose on ourselves. > > > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 5:29 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Those who dominate are actually slaves to their own lower > > > > > > > > > nature. > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 2, 12:15 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Molly is right. > > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:33 AM, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Such confidence is rarely seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 3:00 pm, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > we all use it, you are no exception. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 1:57 pm, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *** assumes the royal 'we' is being used *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 1, 4:43 am, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "we need to take on a greater arrogance to put the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ' good - at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - heart ' arrogant in place." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see, like toning down anger with more anger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this can be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > effective, but only if our counter anger is seen in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > truth by us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Often, in such situations, instead of one person > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lovingly using the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > affect of anger to tone down another into a more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rational state, we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > get two people raging at one another. And like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > force, this rarely > > > > > > > > > > > > > > comes to love. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The trick to it would be, I suppose, that our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > judgment of another be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > completely clear, devoid of all self serving > > > > > > > > > > > > > > agenda, shining like the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sun at high noon, without shadow. Often, we do not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > recognize that it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not until the words are already spoken and the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > damage done. More > > > > > > > > > > > > > > often, we donn the suit of the warrior out to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > squash wrong in another > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with our sword of love and come to find that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > indeed, we have picked > > > > > > > > > > > up > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the sword of self interest instead, and are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ultimately at war with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ourselves, only recognizing it in other when our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > own shadow turns the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mirror to darkness. Thus, humility has its way > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with us, and the > > > > > > > > > > > light > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is restored. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that one big clue as to which is which is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the language that > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > choose, even in our own thoughts. If we are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looking to expose and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > condemn with references of evil and harsh words, we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are usually > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quelling our own ghosts. When we are reaching out > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with compassion > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > holding other in the greater good, we are moving in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > compassion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, when we are revved up with emotion, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we sometimes don't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stop to determine the difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 31, 8:40 am, vamadevananda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't the whole thing, Molly ! Sometimes, as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they say, God > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > willing, we need to take on a greater arrogance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to put the ' good - > > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - heart ' arrogant in place. Out of sheer love of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the other, if I > > > > > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > add. It usually is on account of forgetfulness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the treatment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > serves to shake things up in a moment or for a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > day or week, for the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > protagonist to reflect and realise the simplest > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of truths he'd come > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > transgress. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We'll all have the time and occasion to come > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > together when we can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate or deprecate our bodies, talk of our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > feelings and > > > > > > > > > > > emotions, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our thoughts and ideas, and our knowledge, with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the full awareness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that it is the others who are making it possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Occasionally too, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the knowledge comes to resonate among two or > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
