" ... how we end up under mad leaders like Mao, Hitler and Kim Jong IL,"
Because " we " are in essence no different from them, psychically speaking. They gathered their mind to their two or three beliefs, we do not, found and took their opportunities in the environment, we did not, were encouraged by their successes, we were relative losers, and ended up being convinced about the truth in their beliefs, while we were still searching and lost. " We " followed them, in amazement and in our weaknesses, in comparison ! Like the vultures who fly high but ( naturally ) have their eye on the carcass on the ground, " we " may ( naturally ! ) think high of ourselves but are yet defined by ( our concern and preoccupation with ) the same needs ... food, sex, security, power ( over food, sex and security of others people ). That is the simple ( natural ) problem with " we." On Jun 26, 7:36 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > There's some great footage available on chimps in which one can tell > how much better the whole group feels under the rather 'kindly' Freud > as Alpha, than when the 'bumptious' Frodo takes over (he's the one > who steals and kills a human baby). I believe we lie a lot about > human behaviour and need to recognize the flaws we carry. I think it > is a mistake to think these are somehow essentials that can be > channelled or that we need the aggression - this is often ritualised > in nature. All Gruff's point have some kind of validity. What I'm > after is an understanding of how we end up under mad leaders like Mao, > Hitler and Kim Jong IL, the extent to which this afflicts all > leadership and how we might be able to structure freedom from whatever > this is. > > On 25 June, 07:24, ashok tewari <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > " ... greatest of freedoms, freedom from ignorance, fear, guilt, and our own > > aggressive natures." > > > Great thought, Gruff ! The only hitch is this evidence that no amount of > > formal education or prosperity, political and economic growth, law and order > > or judicial improvements, will lead to elimination of those bondages ... > > because they are the negatives which human beings secrete from within > > themselves, because that is the nature and limitations of the psychical > > world we carry and inhabit within ourselves, because awakening into the > > spiritual realm is essentially a non - material, supramental and quantum > > process ... that needs love and desire for truth, for its own sake, for fuel > > ! > > > On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 10:20 AM, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > "... On Jun 24, 7:02 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: ..." > > > > > Ants even take 'slaves'- much behaviour is deeply genetic. All > > > > primates show political behaviour. Many competitions in the animal > > > > world are brutish, some ritualised and there is more cooperation than > > > > seems likely at first glance. > > > > Seems like an accurate assessment from what I've seen as well. But > > > the primate aggression noted in the article seems most significant to > > > me in the sense that they are our nearest relatives and we haven't > > > changed that much except that today our aggression is expressed in > > > more acceptable forms such as competition in business, sports, family > > > and even with ourselves -- notwithstanding the fact that much of that > > > competition incurs fraud, larceny and chicanery. Perhaps this is part > > > of the path to achieving freedom from the fear and guilt which drives > > > such destructive behavior. > > > > > I associate a burning lack of freedom > > > > in our current society, much to do with dire jobsworths - this reminds > > > > me a lot of the worst of the soviets. The ease with which anyone can > > > > be treated as 'worthless shit' is what's eating me. I don't see this > > > > as political-economic in terms of capitalism or anything else - it's > > > > more imperialist. > > > > I have to ask ... freedom from what? Freedom to do what? A perceived > > > lack of freedom is a recognizable and common plaint around the world > > > today and whenever I hear it I ask those questions because from my > > > perspective we have more freedom today than we've ever had in all our > > > past history. But even here I have to define and divine the freedoms > > > of which I speak. > > > > In an ultimate sense we all have the freedom at any time to perform > > > most acts we can conceive but we don't necessarily want many of those > > > freedoms. I'm quite sure, except for a few self indulgent miscreants, > > > no one would want the freedom to pick up the jawbone of an ass and > > > slay people. Freedom from want is relatively easy to achieve in > > > western society and becoming more so in other societies via a great > > > expansion of wealth (ex. China, India, et al). > > > > Freedom from being screwed by those wielding the big screwdrivers? > > > Freedom from being treated as the 'worthless shit' you reference? I'm > > > not certain but it seems that success in the political-economic realm > > > would be advantageous to achieving freedom in those areas. Wealth and > > > power enable a great deal of freedom. But I've a feeling you're > > > talking more about freedom for the proletariat. I think this is > > > probably achieved at a much slower pace and in smaller increments. > > > > The average slob in western society today has achieved a great deal of > > > freedom relative to the amount of freedom he'd have in western society > > > a hundred years ago. Sure, back then he'd have the freedom to wear a > > > gun and probably get killed in some godforsaken bar fight Well, > > > thinking about it, pursuant to new law, that same freedom is available > > > here in Arizona. It is now legal for Arizonans to wear concealed > > > weapons without benefit of a permit and to wear those concealed > > > weapons into bars if they so choose. Maybe the heat eventually fries > > > brains. > > > > But a century ago that same man or woman would not have the freedom to > > > move about the world easily, study anyone and anything they chose, > > > attend institutes of higher learning, be attended to by competent and > > > well equipped doctors, lawyers, accountants, police, firemen, etc., to > > > shop for a wide variety of merchandise from around the world, to do a > > > million such things and benefit from a million others that simply were > > > not available a hundred years ago. > > > > If I could wish but one freedom upon the human race it would be > > > freedom from stupidity. Freedom from the self-destructiveness that > > > seems inherent in our species. But the very thing that separates us > > > from all other species is the high degree of mental ability we have > > > and this ability seems to come with a built in curse (perhaps it's > > > what many religions refer to as 'original sin') that is a self- > > > awareness which permits us -- even lures us -- to doubts and fears > > > which no other species endures. We truly are our own worst enemy. > > > > I feel it is our awareness coupled with this self-destructiveness that > > > when expressed via the aggressive natures we still carry, leads to > > > much of the misery you speak of. Perhaps it is this which we still > > > have to conquer in order to achieve the greatest of freedoms, freedom > > > from ignorance, fear, guilt, and our own aggressive natures. > > > -- > > ASHOK TEWARI
