Ah, Gravity is your answer, Vam. I understand that. I'm having problems accessing google groups via direct login myself. But the old work-around somehow still does the trick. And in the meantime I silently prey for some higher bug fixing entity to dissolve all my inconveniences. So much for my sad truth.
On 26 Jun., 22:49, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > Nature knows no but and no problem. On which grounds do you distil > your "we" definition then? > > On 26 Jun., 18:39, vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > " ... how we end up under mad leaders like Mao, Hitler and Kim Jong > > IL," > > > Because " we " are in essence no different from them, psychically > > speaking. They gathered their mind to their two or three beliefs, we > > do not, found and took their opportunities in the environment, we did > > not, were encouraged by their successes, we were relative losers, and > > ended up being convinced about the truth in their beliefs, while we > > were still searching and lost. " We " followed them, in amazement and > > in our weaknesses, in comparison ! > > > Like the vultures who fly high but ( naturally ) have their eye on the > > carcass on the ground, " we " may ( naturally ! ) think high of > > ourselves but are yet defined by ( our concern and preoccupation > > with ) the same needs ... food, sex, security, power ( over food, sex > > and security of others people ). > > > That is the simple ( natural ) problem with " we." > > > On Jun 26, 7:36 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > There's some great footage available on chimps in which one can tell > > > how much better the whole group feels under the rather 'kindly' Freud > > > as Alpha, than when the 'bumptious' Frodo takes over (he's the one > > > who steals and kills a human baby). I believe we lie a lot about > > > human behaviour and need to recognize the flaws we carry. I think it > > > is a mistake to think these are somehow essentials that can be > > > channelled or that we need the aggression - this is often ritualised > > > in nature. All Gruff's point have some kind of validity. What I'm > > > after is an understanding of how we end up under mad leaders like Mao, > > > Hitler and Kim Jong IL, the extent to which this afflicts all > > > leadership and how we might be able to structure freedom from whatever > > > this is. > > > > On 25 June, 07:24, ashok tewari <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > " ... greatest of freedoms, freedom from ignorance, fear, guilt, and > > > > our own > > > > aggressive natures." > > > > > Great thought, Gruff ! The only hitch is this evidence that no amount > > > > of > > > > formal education or prosperity, political and economic growth, law and > > > > order > > > > or judicial improvements, will lead to elimination of those bondages ... > > > > because they are the negatives which human beings secrete from within > > > > themselves, because that is the nature and limitations of the psychical > > > > world we carry and inhabit within ourselves, because awakening into the > > > > spiritual realm is essentially a non - material, supramental and quantum > > > > process ... that needs love and desire for truth, for its own sake, for > > > > fuel > > > > ! > > > > > On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 10:20 AM, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > "... On Jun 24, 7:02 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: ..." > > > > > > > Ants even take 'slaves'- much behaviour is deeply genetic. All > > > > > > primates show political behaviour. Many competitions in the animal > > > > > > world are brutish, some ritualised and there is more cooperation > > > > > > than > > > > > > seems likely at first glance. > > > > > > Seems like an accurate assessment from what I've seen as well. But > > > > > the primate aggression noted in the article seems most significant to > > > > > me in the sense that they are our nearest relatives and we haven't > > > > > changed that much except that today our aggression is expressed in > > > > > more acceptable forms such as competition in business, sports, family > > > > > and even with ourselves -- notwithstanding the fact that much of that > > > > > competition incurs fraud, larceny and chicanery. Perhaps this is part > > > > > of the path to achieving freedom from the fear and guilt which drives > > > > > such destructive behavior. > > > > > > > I associate a burning lack of freedom > > > > > > in our current society, much to do with dire jobsworths - this > > > > > > reminds > > > > > > me a lot of the worst of the soviets. The ease with which anyone > > > > > > can > > > > > > be treated as 'worthless shit' is what's eating me. I don't see > > > > > > this > > > > > > as political-economic in terms of capitalism or anything else - it's > > > > > > more imperialist. > > > > > > I have to ask ... freedom from what? Freedom to do what? A perceived > > > > > lack of freedom is a recognizable and common plaint around the world > > > > > today and whenever I hear it I ask those questions because from my > > > > > perspective we have more freedom today than we've ever had in all our > > > > > past history. But even here I have to define and divine the freedoms > > > > > of which I speak. > > > > > > In an ultimate sense we all have the freedom at any time to perform > > > > > most acts we can conceive but we don't necessarily want many of those > > > > > freedoms. I'm quite sure, except for a few self indulgent miscreants, > > > > > no one would want the freedom to pick up the jawbone of an ass and > > > > > slay people. Freedom from want is relatively easy to achieve in > > > > > western society and becoming more so in other societies via a great > > > > > expansion of wealth (ex. China, India, et al). > > > > > > Freedom from being screwed by those wielding the big screwdrivers? > > > > > Freedom from being treated as the 'worthless shit' you reference? I'm > > > > > not certain but it seems that success in the political-economic realm > > > > > would be advantageous to achieving freedom in those areas. Wealth and > > > > > power enable a great deal of freedom. But I've a feeling you're > > > > > talking more about freedom for the proletariat. I think this is > > > > > probably achieved at a much slower pace and in smaller increments. > > > > > > The average slob in western society today has achieved a great deal of > > > > > freedom relative to the amount of freedom he'd have in western society > > > > > a hundred years ago. Sure, back then he'd have the freedom to wear a > > > > > gun and probably get killed in some godforsaken bar fight Well, > > > > > thinking about it, pursuant to new law, that same freedom is available > > > > > here in Arizona. It is now legal for Arizonans to wear concealed > > > > > weapons without benefit of a permit and to wear those concealed > > > > > weapons into bars if they so choose. Maybe the heat eventually fries > > > > > brains. > > > > > > But a century ago that same man or woman would not have the freedom to > > > > > move about the world easily, study anyone and anything they chose, > > > > > attend institutes of higher learning, be attended to by competent and > > > > > well equipped doctors, lawyers, accountants, police, firemen, etc., to > > > > > shop for a wide variety of merchandise from around the world, to do a > > > > > million such things and benefit from a million others that simply were > > > > > not available a hundred years ago. > > > > > > If I could wish but one freedom upon the human race it would be > > > > > freedom from stupidity. Freedom from the self-destructiveness that > > > > > seems inherent in our species. But the very thing that separates us > > > > > from all other species is the high degree of mental ability we have > > > > > and this ability seems to come with a built in curse (perhaps it's > > > > > what many religions refer to as 'original sin') that is a self- > > > > > awareness which permits us -- even lures us -- to doubts and fears > > > > > which no other species endures. We truly are our own worst enemy. > > > > > > I feel it is our awareness coupled with this self-destructiveness that > > > > > when expressed via the aggressive natures we still carry, leads to > > > > > much of the misery you speak of. Perhaps it is this which we still > > > > > have to conquer in order to achieve the greatest of freedoms, freedom > > > > > from ignorance, fear, guilt, and our own aggressive natures. > > > > > -- > > > > ASHOK TEWARI- Zitierten Text ausblenden - > > - Zitierten Text anzeigen -
