I think the quote you may be reffering to was that made by Descartes
which was"Je pense donce je suis" or "cogito ergo sum" in english "I
think, therefore I am"
Which is a valid statement and along the same philosophical lines. The
implications of the former are that of a craftsman where as that of
the latter more likened to a garden though they could be viewed as
synonymous. Thought is a powerful tool and when coupled with belief it
is a creative force. I see the reasoning behind the assertion of the
intelligent design of the universe when lookin at things through these
glasses however rose colored they may be.
On Aug 17, 8:58 pm, Deane Kellison <[email protected]> wrote:
> An old parable
> that is not exclusive to religion states; "What you believe is so, is
> so."
>
> Is that the same effect as "I believe therefor I am"?
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:26:35 -0700
> > Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: The Phenomenon ' I '
> > From: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
>
> > "To what benefit does belief
> > in a god hold other than a false comfort out of self delusion? Are
> > believers in god any better off than the rest of the people in the
> > world? Do they live longer, live more prosperous, live without
> > disease or present any other life circumstance that differentiates
> > them from the non believers?"- Slip
>
> > I would say that belief of itself holds more power than disbelief
> > without even adding a god or gods into the eqution! An old parable
> > that is not exclusive to religion states; "What you believe is so, is
> > so."
> > In my limited experience and IMHO I 'believe' this to be true.
>
> > On Aug 17, 11:57 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Divine Will did not create all the species that are present. Genetic
> > > mingling within the "primordial" pool generated new species which are
> > > basically chromosomal anomalies and mutations . Just consider the
> > > offspring of just 3 organisms such as A, B and C. You get AA, AB,
> > > AC, BB, BA, BC, CC, CA and CB. Now mix all those together and affix
> > > the multiplier to the group; it's exponential. It's like the mule,
> > > the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse and the numerous
> > > variations in aves and canine species. Mammoth creatures hadn't much
> > > of a chance for survival but mostly what remains today are smaller
> > > organisms including ourselves. There are a few giant creatures around
> > > like the elephant and whale. I do believe in afterlife primarily on
> > > account of my lucid dreams, a coma experience and the knowledge of
> > > parallel universes which make it quite possible for a consciousness to
> > > incarnate within a parallel plane of existence. We have not traveled
> > > so far as to establish life elsewhere but it does not mean life
> > > doesn't exist elsewhere. As methods of space travel increase our
> > > ability for distance and duration we may someday discover another
> > > solar system with life; then again we may not, but who knows.
> > > I'm still wondering what you have to offer in the way of
> > > substantiation of such beliefs aside from written texts by ancient
> > > people who lacked the scientific knowledge that renders many of the
> > > writings mere superstition and myth. Basically we are creatures that
> > > are part of the biological portion of the universe with
> > > characteristics that separate us from inanimate objects such as rocks.
> > > Our intelligence is something that evolved over millions of years; we
> > > were not programed with intelligence by an intelligent source. We
> > > have become what we are by our own invention and as gruff points out
> > > we have yet to reach our full potential. To what benefit does belief
> > > in a god hold other than a false comfort out of self delusion? Are
> > > believers in god any better off than the rest of the people in the
> > > world? Do they live longer, live more prosperous, live without
> > > disease or present any other life circumstance that differentiates
> > > them from the non believers?
>
> > > On Aug 17, 8:07 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Slip , I like your assessment of religion , but I have never talked
> > > > religion , I have talked of one God who may or may not be conscious ,
> > > > but he
> > > > is intelligent to such a degree that a universe which has intelligent
> > > > design
> > > > has sprung from Him. Like you I don't believe in a after life. It is
> > > > strange
> > > > that one man who believes in God says that he will go to ashes after
> > > > death
> > > > while another who doesn't believe in God says he will live many lives. I
> > > > like the beauty of this and often wonder about this divine will which
> > > > has
> > > > made so many species , but to me I am simply an organism like any other
> > > > and
> > > > would die and attain the supreme peace that is in oblivion because
> > > > whether
> > > > you agree or not even a life of luxury is painful as compared to the
> > > > everlasting peace of oblivion.
>
> > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > It seems many things and possibly all things are perishable but it
> > > > > bears no meaning nor represents any point beyond something being
> > > > > perishable. To consider life being a product of "intelligent" design
> > > > > requires a great deal of blind faith, for nothing in our history has
> > > > > ever demonstrated that notion as conclusive evidence but has clearly
> > > > > maintained itself to be deduction. Fact is that any real observation
> > > > > of life will reveal numerous design flaws which fail to meet any
> > > > > standard of a super intelligence. Health and disease concerns are
> > > > > evidence of a faulty design just from start; tack on the natural
> > > > > disasters that kill millions each year and the intelligence portion of
> > > > > your argument continues to shrink.
>
> > > > > A feral child is born and throughout life fails to reach any level of
> > > > > discernible intelligence therefore it could be reasonably understood
> > > > > that intelligence in an of itself is a product stemming from multiple
> > > > > factors such as environmental influence. You fail to recognize the
> > > > > fact that we have ascended from a prehistoric time of limited mental
> > > > > capacity, that we were simply another beast roaming the earth, that
> > > > > other now extinct beasts of mammoth proportion were our co-inhabitants
> > > > > and very little if any of that existence exhibited signs of
> > > > > intelligent design.
>
> > > > > Humans developed the ability to speak and communicate ideas which were
> > > > > shared among groups and through travel were extended to other areas.
> > > > > While some groups progressed others remained primitive, which is still
> > > > > evidenced today by primitive cultures who for some reason remain
> > > > > isolated in remote areas of jungles and forests. Early man conjured
> > > > > ideas from simple deduction based on environment and finally reaching
> > > > > a point of recognition of helplessness over certain conditions began
> > > > > to look elsewhere for help, ergo; gods were created. By mere
> > > > > observation of cultural systems whereby different charges were
> > > > > delegated to certain individuals it became clear that the environment
> > > > > must have been commanded by individual gods, ergo; the sun god, god of
> > > > > the sea and others.
>
> > > > > Then of course there came the ultimate source of knowledge "religion"
> > > > > and along with it came power and the destruction that ensued.
> > > > > Individuals became aware that others less astute would turn to them
> > > > > for answers and so having answers was a must in order to establish one
> > > > > as being an authority. At the same time there were others who
> > > > > branched off with other ideas such as monotheism and established their
> > > > > congregation. One led to another and the ramification of the idea
> > > > > that there were gods filled the earth. Governments were literally
> > > > > built on the ideas and once it was realized that the resultant bi-
> > > > > product of religion was monetary wealth it became clear that others
> > > > > needed to be destroyed because they were taking away from the
> > > > > profits.
>
> > > > > Well here we are living in a world with thousands of years behind us
> > > > > filled with a myriad of religious beliefs and a gazillion hours of
> > > > > "prayer" to imaginary gods imploring them to help us out of our
> > > > > misery. Still after all this time and effort we find ourselves
> > > > > floundering in the muck and mire of a self induced quagmire of world
> > > > > hunger and poverty. Your god and any other person's god has done
> > > > > nothing about hunger and poverty and it remains a crucial human
> > > > > issue. But there is a cure without a god.
>
> > > > > There are simple solutions to world hunger/poverty but humanity is
> > > > > just not doing anything about it. There are simple solutions to
> > > > > homelessness but humanity is not doing anything about it.
>
> > > > > What humanity "IS" doing is foreclosing on homes and farms, paying
> > > > > farmers not to grow crops as a means of controlling stock figures and
> > > > > numerous other blockage devices designed to encourage quagmires.
>
> > > > > What humanity "IS" doing is setting up systems of government and
> > > > > financial institutions that create "Mega Wealth" and "Wars" to gain
> > > > > wealth and it "IS" being accomplished without any problem.
> > > > > Mega wealth>No Problem War>No Problem Hunger>Problem
> > > > > Homelessness>Problem Poverty>Problem
>
> > > > > And here is the story about how religion gets going......
>
> > > > > First you have the sheep that are freezing in the cold while their
> > > > > wool
> > > > > is constantly being fleeced. They don't understand why they are
> > > > > always in the cold when they have so much wool. They look and see
> > > > > the fleecers living warm and cozy with their wool and see piles of
> > > > > wool not being used but sold to other fleecers. The sheep get tired
> > > > > of being cold so they start to buy back their wool but the prices are
> > > > > really high and some sheep can't afford to buy any, so they must
> > > > > remain cold, some are so cold that they freeze to death. Some of the
> > > > > sheep protest but many of them are jailed, assassinated and turned
> > > > > into mutton soup.
> > > > > One of the sheep named Shep tells the other sheep that the reason they
> > > > > are cold is because they were born as bad sheep and must pray to
> > > > > BahBah the great sheep deity. Shep teaches the sheep how to pray and
> > > > > tells the sheep they need to keep him warm so that he can keep
> > > > > teaching them about BahBah. The sheep gather whatever wool they can
> > > > > glean
>
> ...
>
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