Thanks - I knew 'i believe' did not sound right Deane
> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 05:40:22 -0700 > Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: The Phenomenon ' I ' > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > I think the quote you may be reffering to was that made by Descartes > which was"Je pense donce je suis" or "cogito ergo sum" in english "I > think, therefore I am" > Which is a valid statement and along the same philosophical lines. The > implications of the former are that of a craftsman where as that of > the latter more likened to a garden though they could be viewed as > synonymous. Thought is a powerful tool and when coupled with belief it > is a creative force. I see the reasoning behind the assertion of the > intelligent design of the universe when lookin at things through these > glasses however rose colored they may be. > On Aug 17, 8:58 pm, Deane Kellison <[email protected]> wrote: > > An old parable > > that is not exclusive to religion states; "What you believe is so, is > > so." > > > > Is that the same effect as "I believe therefor I am"? > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:26:35 -0700 > > > Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: The Phenomenon ' I ' > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > "To what benefit does belief > > > in a god hold other than a false comfort out of self delusion? Are > > > believers in god any better off than the rest of the people in the > > > world? Do they live longer, live more prosperous, live without > > > disease or present any other life circumstance that differentiates > > > them from the non believers?"- Slip > > > > > I would say that belief of itself holds more power than disbelief > > > without even adding a god or gods into the eqution! An old parable > > > that is not exclusive to religion states; "What you believe is so, is > > > so." > > > In my limited experience and IMHO I 'believe' this to be true. > > > > > On Aug 17, 11:57 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Divine Will did not create all the species that are present. Genetic > > > > mingling within the "primordial" pool generated new species which are > > > > basically chromosomal anomalies and mutations . Just consider the > > > > offspring of just 3 organisms such as A, B and C. You get AA, AB, > > > > AC, BB, BA, BC, CC, CA and CB. Now mix all those together and affix > > > > the multiplier to the group; it's exponential. It's like the mule, > > > > the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse and the numerous > > > > variations in aves and canine species. Mammoth creatures hadn't much > > > > of a chance for survival but mostly what remains today are smaller > > > > organisms including ourselves. There are a few giant creatures around > > > > like the elephant and whale. I do believe in afterlife primarily on > > > > account of my lucid dreams, a coma experience and the knowledge of > > > > parallel universes which make it quite possible for a consciousness to > > > > incarnate within a parallel plane of existence. We have not traveled > > > > so far as to establish life elsewhere but it does not mean life > > > > doesn't exist elsewhere. As methods of space travel increase our > > > > ability for distance and duration we may someday discover another > > > > solar system with life; then again we may not, but who knows. > > > > I'm still wondering what you have to offer in the way of > > > > substantiation of such beliefs aside from written texts by ancient > > > > people who lacked the scientific knowledge that renders many of the > > > > writings mere superstition and myth. Basically we are creatures that > > > > are part of the biological portion of the universe with > > > > characteristics that separate us from inanimate objects such as rocks. > > > > Our intelligence is something that evolved over millions of years; we > > > > were not programed with intelligence by an intelligent source. We > > > > have become what we are by our own invention and as gruff points out > > > > we have yet to reach our full potential. To what benefit does belief > > > > in a god hold other than a false comfort out of self delusion? Are > > > > believers in god any better off than the rest of the people in the > > > > world? Do they live longer, live more prosperous, live without > > > > disease or present any other life circumstance that differentiates > > > > them from the non believers? > > > > > > On Aug 17, 8:07 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Slip , I like your assessment of religion , but I have never talked > > > > > religion , I have talked of one God who may or may not be conscious , > > > > > but he > > > > > is intelligent to such a degree that a universe which has intelligent > > > > > design > > > > > has sprung from Him. Like you I don't believe in a after life. It is > > > > > strange > > > > > that one man who believes in God says that he will go to ashes after > > > > > death > > > > > while another who doesn't believe in God says he will live many > > > > > lives. I > > > > > like the beauty of this and often wonder about this divine will which > > > > > has > > > > > made so many species , but to me I am simply an organism like any > > > > > other and > > > > > would die and attain the supreme peace that is in oblivion because > > > > > whether > > > > > you agree or not even a life of luxury is painful as compared to the > > > > > everlasting peace of oblivion. > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > It seems many things and possibly all things are perishable but it > > > > > > bears no meaning nor represents any point beyond something being > > > > > > perishable. To consider life being a product of "intelligent" > > > > > > design > > > > > > requires a great deal of blind faith, for nothing in our history has > > > > > > ever demonstrated that notion as conclusive evidence but has clearly > > > > > > maintained itself to be deduction. Fact is that any real > > > > > > observation > > > > > > of life will reveal numerous design flaws which fail to meet any > > > > > > standard of a super intelligence. Health and disease concerns are > > > > > > evidence of a faulty design just from start; tack on the natural > > > > > > disasters that kill millions each year and the intelligence portion > > > > > > of > > > > > > your argument continues to shrink. > > > > > > > > A feral child is born and throughout life fails to reach any level > > > > > > of > > > > > > discernible intelligence therefore it could be reasonably understood > > > > > > that intelligence in an of itself is a product stemming from > > > > > > multiple > > > > > > factors such as environmental influence. You fail to recognize the > > > > > > fact that we have ascended from a prehistoric time of limited mental > > > > > > capacity, that we were simply another beast roaming the earth, that > > > > > > other now extinct beasts of mammoth proportion were our > > > > > > co-inhabitants > > > > > > and very little if any of that existence exhibited signs of > > > > > > intelligent design. > > > > > > > > Humans developed the ability to speak and communicate ideas which > > > > > > were > > > > > > shared among groups and through travel were extended to other areas. > > > > > > While some groups progressed others remained primitive, which is > > > > > > still > > > > > > evidenced today by primitive cultures who for some reason remain > > > > > > isolated in remote areas of jungles and forests. Early man conjured > > > > > > ideas from simple deduction based on environment and finally > > > > > > reaching > > > > > > a point of recognition of helplessness over certain conditions began > > > > > > to look elsewhere for help, ergo; gods were created. By mere > > > > > > observation of cultural systems whereby different charges were > > > > > > delegated to certain individuals it became clear that the > > > > > > environment > > > > > > must have been commanded by individual gods, ergo; the sun god, god > > > > > > of > > > > > > the sea and others. > > > > > > > > Then of course there came the ultimate source of knowledge > > > > > > "religion" > > > > > > and along with it came power and the destruction that ensued. > > > > > > Individuals became aware that others less astute would turn to them > > > > > > for answers and so having answers was a must in order to establish > > > > > > one > > > > > > as being an authority. At the same time there were others who > > > > > > branched off with other ideas such as monotheism and established > > > > > > their > > > > > > congregation. One led to another and the ramification of the idea > > > > > > that there were gods filled the earth. Governments were literally > > > > > > built on the ideas and once it was realized that the resultant bi- > > > > > > product of religion was monetary wealth it became clear that others > > > > > > needed to be destroyed because they were taking away from the > > > > > > profits. > > > > > > > > Well here we are living in a world with thousands of years behind us > > > > > > filled with a myriad of religious beliefs and a gazillion hours of > > > > > > "prayer" to imaginary gods imploring them to help us out of our > > > > > > misery. Still after all this time and effort we find ourselves > > > > > > floundering in the muck and mire of a self induced quagmire of world > > > > > > hunger and poverty. Your god and any other person's god has done > > > > > > nothing about hunger and poverty and it remains a crucial human > > > > > > issue. But there is a cure without a god. > > > > > > > > There are simple solutions to world hunger/poverty but humanity is > > > > > > just not doing anything about it. There are simple solutions to > > > > > > homelessness but humanity is not doing anything about it. > > > > > > > > What humanity "IS" doing is foreclosing on homes and farms, paying > > > > > > farmers not to grow crops as a means of controlling stock figures > > > > > > and > > > > > > numerous other blockage devices designed to encourage quagmires. > > > > > > > > What humanity "IS" doing is setting up systems of government and > > > > > > financial institutions that create "Mega Wealth" and "Wars" to gain > > > > > > wealth and it "IS" being accomplished without any problem. > > > > > > Mega wealth>No Problem War>No Problem Hunger>Problem > > > > > > Homelessness>Problem Poverty>Problem > > > > > > > > And here is the story about how religion gets going...... > > > > > > > > First you have the sheep that are freezing in the cold while their > > > > > > wool > > > > > > is constantly being fleeced. They don't understand why they are > > > > > > always in the cold when they have so much wool. They look and see > > > > > > the fleecers living warm and cozy with their wool and see piles of > > > > > > wool not being used but sold to other fleecers. The sheep get tired > > > > > > of being cold so they start to buy back their wool but the prices > > > > > > are > > > > > > really high and some sheep can't afford to buy any, so they must > > > > > > remain cold, some are so cold that they freeze to death. Some of > > > > > > the > > > > > > sheep protest but many of them are jailed, assassinated and turned > > > > > > into mutton soup. > > > > > > One of the sheep named Shep tells the other sheep that the reason > > > > > > they > > > > > > are cold is because they were born as bad sheep and must pray to > > > > > > BahBah the great sheep deity. Shep teaches the sheep how to pray > > > > > > and > > > > > > tells the sheep they need to keep him warm so that he can keep > > > > > > teaching them about BahBah. The sheep gather whatever wool they can > > > > > > glean > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -
